How can we improve the image of English teachers in Asia?

Discussion Open Forum
61

Yeah, I guess most consider themselves to be until they step foot on the airplane and head back home.

A friend of mine recently got a job in China at an International school. The pay is 100,000 n.t. per month, paid apartment, return ticket once per year, and free tuition in the international school for their 3 kids.
Your average English Coach in China earns maybe 30,000 n.t. per month with on-campus room thrown into the deal.
If they are also teachers then I wonder why they don’t go for the better paying jobs.

I used to work at McDonald’s but I don’t consider myself a chef.

.

62

I will answer your post properly when I have time, but…

Well that is the point. Without a regulated or controlled industry it’s hidden…there are no stats. As for any other group of people? Well, AFAIK pedophiles like kids. So, they are going to be drawn into situation where there are kids. Lots of them, preferably.
Asia is behind the rest of the world as far as safeguarding what is acceptable and what is not regarding inappropriate situations.

No statistics, just logic. But you are welcome to provide stats of your own to prove me wrong.[/quote]

Nope. Provide the proof to support your claim. If you are going to take the position that a particular field of work contains more disgusting criminals than others, you should at least provide hard proof of it. A priori reasoning doesn’t cut it, neither does media frenzy reporting of relatively few incidents.[/quote]

Alright, here we go.

This makes my skin crawl just googling this stuff.

[quote]The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the offence.
Source: National Institute of Mental Health, 1988.

About 60% of the male survivors sampled report at least one of their perpetrators to be female.
Source: Mendel, 1993.

About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.
Source: CCPCA, 1992.

It is estimated that approximately 71% of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at least casually. About 80% of these individuals fall within normal intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through, seduction or enticement.
Source: Burgess & Groth, 1984.[/quote]

prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm#Offenders

As expected, most of the information is US based, not asia based. Why? cos Asia probably doesn’t give a shit to carry our studies and publish them.

Look at the very first statistic (bolded up there), one would think it’s going to be pretty difficult to specifically provide statistical proof that “Asia is a haven for child sex offenders” as has been in the media if ‘most are never reported’ - and this is the US, remember, where child abuse is talked about openly, movies are made about it, and it is generally considered wise to teach children as early as possible to tell their parents about anyone the does something inappropriate to them. I wonder if this is the case in Asia? Of course no statistics, again, just wondering.

My point is, I believe that kids are LESS likely to report a case of abuse here than in a western culture, and considering the quickly googled stats above, that means there is even less chance of ever knowing the truth.

Are private schools set up in the US and teachers willingly hired without formal quals and basic background checks? I dunno, you tell me - but it sure happens here, rampantly.

I shudder to put myself in the mind on a pedophile, but, I would guess that the easiest way to get close to your victims would be to put yourself in a socially acceptable position of authority, surrounded by kids. Kids are known to do things they don’t agree with when asked by a person of authority…such as Priests, Coaches, Youth leaders and…teachers.
But wait a minute, some countries have recognised this and keep registers of these people, run background checks and set up specific policies and eductation programs to highlight to kids what is appropriate and what is not. I wonder if that is done in Asia? No statistics again, just a thought.

So, if a pedophile wanted to put himself into the best possible situation to offend with less chance of getting caught (and if he did get caught, the consequences might be what…getting fired, or perhaps deported)…where in the global scheme of things would it be a good place to come to?
Would it be a place where a person is adored because they look and speak like a movie star? Would it be a place where it is so competitive that kids are under immense pressure to perform and certainly never be given bad grades by the teacher? Would it be a place where shame is one of the greatest cultural fears?

It surprises me how defensive this discussion has become. I believe the teachers here that are following their passion to teach and who do it well owe it to themselves and likeminded colleagues to get the industry regulated and under control. Your support of legitimate qualifications, teacher registers, background checks and international standards for both education and socially acceptable behavior will, IMHO, allow professionals to work, and kids to learn in a better and safer environment.

Who’s saying a teacher is more likely to be a pedophile? Not me. I’m saying the doors are wide open for ANYONE to come here unchecked and put themselves in a position of authority surrounded by kids, in a society that doesn’t really want to talk about it.

Sorry I can’t find the statistics, to ‘prove’ all this, but I am an uneducated man who relies on common sense a fair bit.

63

[quote=“Toasty”]FT= foreign teacher. Sorry, I’m a bit lazy and resort to short cuts. Hope you don’t mind, HCG :wink:

I do know that people with specific mental disorders tend to gravitate toward certain professions. Psychiatry and Medicine sees a higher than normal incidence of people with anti-social disorder. Politicians often exhibit symptoms of borderline personality disorder. Heck, many here exhibit symptoms of OCD (Oops.I take that back). And, yes, jobs involving Children more often attract peds.[/quote]

No worries, I was just a bit weeirded out that the Financial Times was being talked about liks that. :laughing:

:blush: But I’ve moved on to banking/finance, what do they get up to? Hmm, no need to answer that. :blush:

[quote=“Truant”]It surprises me how defensive this discussion has become. I believe the teachers here that are following their passion to teach and who do it well owe it to themselves and likeminded colleagues to get the industry regulated and under control. Your support of legitimate qualifications, teacher registers, background checks and international standards for both education and socially acceptable behavior will, IMHO, allow professionals to work, and kids to learn in a better and safer environment.

Who’s saying a teacher is more likely to be a pedophile? Not me. I’m saying the doors are wide open for ANYONE to come here unchecked and put themselves in a position of authority surrounded by kids, in a society that doesn’t really want to talk about it. [/quote]

Agreed, prevention better than cure and all that. The main point being of course the contact with kids.

HG

64

[quote]I shudder to put myself in the mind on a pedophile, but, I would guess that the easiest way to get close to your victims would be to put yourself in a socially acceptable position of authority, surrounded by kids. Kids are known to do things they don’t agree with when asked by a person of authority…such as Priests, Coaches, Youth leaders and…teachers.
But wait a minute, some countries have recognised this and keep registers of these people, run background checks and set up specific policies and eductation programs to highlight to kids what is appropriate and what is not. I wonder if that is done in Asia? No statistics again, just a thought.
[/quote]

I can say with a certain degree of confidence that Paedophiles definately place themselves in a position where they are more likely to come into contact with children.

The professions include but are not limited to:

Doctors
Nurses
Police Officers
Teachers
Teaching Assistants
Coaches
Priests
Youth club leaders
Youth leaders
Outdoor activity leaders
Cadet scheme volunteers.

I will go on to say that peadophiles are more often clever than stupid. Their whole life will be centred around paedophillia and they will pull out all stops to get into a profession where they can live out their “fetish” as it were.

I am also aware that there are many paedophiles in Asia. The estimated numbers present in Taiwan - in the English teaching “profession” would probably surprise you - shock you, infact.

65

How do you prevent somebody from becoming a pedophile? How do you cure that illness if thats what it is? It’s like trying to cure somebody from being homosexuals.

Maybe there is no cure apart from a bullet to the head.

Where do we find the symptons? What happens when children are actualy molested by other children and not just by adults?

As heart wrenching as it must be for anybody to find out a child has been molested there have also been cases where people have been faslely accused and have had their lives ruined because of it.

Perhaps it’s up to people becoming more responsible by reporting abuse rather than sweeping it under the carpet of shame.

Many societies are now addressing these issues. Some try to hide it. We all know that there are going to be children who are molested. Hopefully counselling for victems and their parents can be provided.

I have no idea about what counselling would satisfy me should any of my children be molested.

Shaming and death to the culprits isnt going to help a molested child.

Neither is paranoia where we now all keep a close eye on strangers who have social interaction with our children whether it’s in a school environment, the churches, mosques, and other places of worship or whetherit is Santa Clause or johnny ped hiding in the bushes ready to pounce on the unwary child.

66

To suggest that there’s no correlation between nonces and FTs in Asia is taking PC-ness to ridiculous extremes, IMO. Of course there are nonces here – lots of them. Why? It’s often difficult and dangerous in most Western countries to be a beastie. In Asia its really really easy.
Not just FTs, of course. My profession is also easy for anyone to get into here. But we don’t work with kids so its less likely to attract pedoes.
I’m with Truant on this. It’s got nothing to do with stereotyping but is pure common sense – Fact: Pedoes gravitate to jobs working with kids. Fact: Asia is a haven for pedoes. Fact: Taiwan is part of Asia. This isn’t rocket science.

67

I will answer your post properly when I have time, but…

Well that is the point. Without a regulated or controlled industry it’s hidden…there are no stats. As for any other group of people? Well, AFAIK pedophiles like kids. So, they are going to be drawn into situation where there are kids. Lots of them, preferably.
Asia is behind the rest of the world as far as safeguarding what is acceptable and what is not regarding inappropriate situations.

No statistics, just logic. But you are welcome to provide stats of your own to prove me wrong.[/quote]

Nope. Provide the proof to support your claim. If you are going to take the position that a particular field of work contains more disgusting criminals than others, you should at least provide hard proof of it. A priori reasoning doesn’t cut it, neither does media frenzy reporting of relatively few incidents.[/quote]

Alright, here we go.

This makes my skin crawl just googling this stuff.

[quote]The typical child sex offender molests an average of 117 children, most of who do not report the offence.
Source: National Institute of Mental Health, 1988.

About 60% of the male survivors sampled report at least one of their perpetrators to be female.
Source: Mendel, 1993.

About 95% of victims know their perpetrators.
Source: CCPCA, 1992.

It is estimated that approximately 71% of child sex offenders are under 35 and knew the victim at least casually. About 80% of these individuals fall within normal intelligence ranges; 59% gain sexual access to their victims through, seduction or enticement.
Source: Burgess & Groth, 1984.[/quote]

prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm#Offenders

As expected, most of the information is US based, not Asia based. Why? cos Asia probably doesn’t give a shit to carry our studies and publish them.

Look at the very first statistic (bolded up there), one would think it’s going to be pretty difficult to specifically provide statistical proof that “Asia is a haven for child sex offenders” as has been in the media if ‘most are never reported’ - and this is the US, remember, where child abuse is talked about openly, movies are made about it, and it is generally considered wise to teach children as early as possible to tell their parents about anyone the does something inappropriate to them. I wonder if this is the case in Asia? Of course no statistics, again, just wondering.

My point is, I believe that kids are LESS likely to report a case of abuse here than in a western culture, and considering the quickly googled stats above, that means there is even less chance of ever knowing the truth.

Are private schools set up in the US and teachers willingly hired without formal quals and basic background checks? I dunno, you tell me - but it sure happens here, rampantly.

I shudder to put myself in the mind on a pedophile, but, I would guess that the easiest way to get close to your victims would be to put yourself in a socially acceptable position of authority, surrounded by kids. Kids are known to do things they don’t agree with when asked by a person of authority…such as Priests, Coaches, Youth leaders and…teachers.
But wait a minute, some countries have recognised this and keep registers of these people, run background checks and set up specific policies and eductation programs to highlight to kids what is appropriate and what is not. I wonder if that is done in Asia? No statistics again, just a thought.

So, if a pedophile wanted to put himself into the best possible situation to offend with less chance of getting caught (and if he did get caught, the consequences might be what…getting fired, or perhaps deported)…where in the global scheme of things would it be a good place to come to?
Would it be a place where a person is adored because they look and speak like a movie star? Would it be a place where it is so competitive that kids are under immense pressure to perform and certainly never be given bad grades by the teacher? Would it be a place where shame is one of the greatest cultural fears?

It surprises me how defensive this discussion has become. I believe the teachers here that are following their passion to teach and who do it well owe it to themselves and likeminded colleagues to get the industry regulated and under control. Your support of legitimate qualifications, teacher registers, background checks and international standards for both education and socially acceptable behavior will, IMHO, allow professionals to work, and kids to learn in a better and safer environment.

Who’s saying a teacher is more likely to be a pedophile? Not me. I’m saying the doors are wide open for ANYONE to come here unchecked and put themselves in a position of authority surrounded by kids, in a society that doesn’t really want to talk about it.

Sorry I can’t find the statistics, to ‘prove’ all this, but I am an uneducated man who relies on common sense a fair bit.[/quote]

Sorry, but I cannot accept your conclusions. I feel with almost a decade of experience in esl/efl related jobs that I am in a good position to make general comments about the sort of person one encounters in English teaching.

My point was and is that FTs in Taiwan are overwhelmingly decent folks, a small subset of losers notwithstanding. Speaking generally, there are a large number of new grads who try out tefling and party hard in Asia at the same time. Even though these people are educated and usually competent, their after work behaviour creates a bad impression at times. Some teachers here might seem a bit like irresponsible, hard living party animals; I have encountered few, however, who are any less well adjusted than this. Further, our reputation is not as bad as a few high profile cases may lead one to believe. It has been my central point that teachers ought not to be overly concerned about a few high profile cases like the JonBenet suspect as these types are not indicative of of even a substantial minority of teflers and our reputation is not especially damaged by them.

You have presented evidence that suggests child sex offenders are attracted to certain jobs. Yes. That’s a truism. However, it hasn’t been established that TEFLers in Asia (Taiwan, specifically), as a group, contain any more sex offenders than a similar population group of childhood educators in a western country would. I suggest it may be possible that there may even be fewer because so many are motivated to come here more by money and lifestyle than by an attraction to working with children over the long term. More alcoholics than normal? Probably, but that comes with the demographic.

Yes, the lack of controls here is troubling. However, without evidence that teflers in Asia are in fact more prone to sex offences, I don’t think it is fair to assume. Also, I don’t like the implications of the assumption: that teachers in Asia do have a serious image problem and it is deserved; that paedophiles and ne’er-do-wells make up a signifigant number of teflers; that we (teachers) bear collective responsibilty for this occurance. All not true, at least in my experiences (but what do I know?).

Finally, I’m not being defensive. I’m just debating with vigour on a day when I have a light work sched. I’m not offended by our little back and forth. I think I’ll make this my last post in this thread to avoid creating the impression that I’m upset over it. I’ll agree to disagree with my friends. :wink:

68

But no-one’s denying this for a moment – its the small subset we’re discussing and they are here most definitely. For something as debased as noncing, you don’t need many to make an impression. They’re the monsters walking among us, and while that isn’t a reason to tar all FTs with the same brush, it IS a reason to have more stringent vetting.

And I’d be inclined to disagree with this statement. People looking to get jobs with children are vetted pretty carefully, at least in the UK. Not always successfully, of course. There was huge outcry when it was discovered that Ian Huntly the Soham Beast had priors and still managed to become a school janitor:

And you can imagine that since then, vetting procedures have tightened even further. Where did old nonce Glitter go when things got too hot for him in Britain? And what did he do when he got there? Right. He began teaching English.
So you see, there’s a compelling reason for paedos to move to a place where they’re less likely to raise a red flag. A relatively small amout in terms of the overall number of teachers here but still… and its not like the majority have a wide choice of jobs to go into once they get here, is it? The simple fact is that ANYONE on the lam who washes up in Taiwan is more likely than not going to end up teaching English, very often to children.

69

Loosely folliwing this thread and stumbled upon this article a bit ago. Thought it might be of interest to some (seeing how it’s a little more current.)

[quote=“www.nytimes.com”]On the Web, Pedophiles Extend Their Reach

At first blush, the two conversations — taking place almost simultaneously in different corners of the Internet — might have seemed unremarkable, even humdrum.

In April, with summer fast approaching, both groups of online friends chatted about jobs at children’s camps. Did anyone, one man asked, know of girls’ camps willing to hire adult males as counselors? Meanwhile, elsewhere in cyberspace, the second group celebrated the news that one of their own had been offered a job leading a boys’ cabin at a sleep-away camp.

But participants in the conversation did not focus on the work. “Hope you see some naked boys in your cabin,” a man calling himself PPC responded. “And good luck while restraining yourself from doing anything.”

The two groups were made up of self-proclaimed pedophiles — one attracted to under-age girls, the other to boys. Their dialogue runs at all hours in an array of chat rooms, bulletin boards and Web sites set up for adults attracted to children.

But it is no longer just chatter in the ether. What started online almost two decades ago as a means of swapping child pornography has transformed in recent years into a more complex and diversified community that uses the virtual world to advance its interests in the real one.

[b]Today, pedophiles go online to seek tips for getting near children — at camps, through foster care, at community gatherings and at countless other events. They swap stories about day-to-day encounters with minors. And they make use of technology to help take their arguments to others, like sharing online a printable booklet to be distributed to children that extols the benefits of sex with adults.

The community’s online infrastructure is surprisingly elaborate. There are Internet radio stations run by and for pedophiles; a putative charity that raised money to send Eastern European children to a camp where they were apparently visited by pedophiles; and an online jewelry company that markets pendants proclaiming the wearer as being sexually attracted to children, allowing anyone in the know to recognize them.[/b]

nytimes.com/2006/08/21/techn … ref=slogin[/quote]

70

How do you prevent somebody from becoming a pedophile? How do you cure that illness if thats what it is? It’s like trying to cure somebody from being homosexuals.

Maybe there is no cure apart from a bullet to the head.[/quote]

Solly SKOP, you caught me, I wasn’t advocating a preventative cure for pedophillia, although elsewhere has since given me an idea*. I meant pre-saging (is that like one of them new wanker words?) the media. Buxi damage control if you will.

  • And here’s the idea!!! Take a kiddie to dinner then go home alone and give it a tug! Brilliant, innit? Thanks possums!

HG

71

Throughout this thread, has anyone mentioned that John Karr did achieve teaching qualifications?
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/living/education/15303558.htm

While they would have been revoked if he had returned to California, he could easily go elsewhere, as could any other certified teacher.

So, I think that requiring a teaching credential is almost equally as useless as requiring a degree.

Perhaps moving towards a back ground check would be more beneficial to the teachers of Taiwan.

For Bu Xi Ban teaching, I don’t really think you need a degree, and you’d be hard pressed to find certified teachers that would give up tenure to bow to some lao ban’s business requirements.

72

well, are you an expert in what ‘sort’ of person a sex offender is?

I think it is fair to say we have managed to have a reasonable debate on this Toasty. I appreciate your view, but personally I believe that the quest for statistics on this to ‘prove’ Asia based FT jobs are a haven for sex offenders is really missing the boat.
You know as well as I do that there are probably no stats. Why? because as I mentioned earlier, the majority of this goes unreported all over the world. Infact, that earlier link tells us some further concerns about the reporting of abuse. I wont repeat all those details there, but I believe it’s a fairly reasonable assumption to say that we don’t know shit about what goes on to our kids. The stats say they are very very unlikely to ever tell anyone.
It’s a fair assumption that most sex offenders actually get away with it most of the time, some forever.
So, no, there are no stats out there…but I am very very concerned that this is the basis to make the assumption that there is not a problem. I am even confident enough to call it a problem, not a ‘potential problem’.

I fully respect your almost decade of being in the industry. What that tells me though, is you are probably way better at determining a good or bad teacher than most. From what the stats tell us, there is a very good chance a sex offender is not only a good teacher, but an excellent one. In fact, if pedophilia is a prime motivator, a sex offender is likely to be extremely passionate about his/her job as a career.

The point is, no matter how long long you have been in the industry, you may well be totally oblivious to the signs. You may judge a person’s ‘weirdness’ on their ability (or lack of) to teach.
The experts tell us that it’s really not that simple.

So, is this the situation?:
Kids are most likely to never report abuse. Even less so in Asia.
+
Offenders are often model citizens who are very good at their jobs.
+
Unregulated industry mostly without registration and enforced qualification/background checks.

  1. Haven for sex offenders working with children in Asia?
    or
  2. An unsubstantiated situation with no cause for alarm because there are no statistics?
73

I should start watching Oprah again. She has a nation-wide search for pedophiles. And I wouldn’t be surprised if this John Karr story turns up on her show. If it does, I’ll try to tape it or get the stats she uses in the show.

74

I wonder how one would know if so-and-so was a pedo. You know when you see it test? :ponder:

75

Is the Oprah search like the one done by Dateline NBC? Dateline gets an adult to pose as a child (the lure) on a website frequented by pedophiles. The lure then agrees to sex and gets the pedophile to come to the house, where the guy is confronted by a camera crew. Some stay for a brief chat, some bolt for the door. All are met outside by police.

76

Cool! :slight_smile: How many have they nailed?

77

Well, I’m no expert, but here’s my ‘test’. When I was on a field trip with my kids, last fall, we went to the local amusement park. Called “window to china” or something like that. So, while we were all resting in the rest area, I happen to just look up and catch some guy snapping pictures of the little girls in my group. The girls were in the 3rd grade. And the one’s he was snapping are very attractive girls. As soon as he saw me , he took off at a quick pace, and avoid eye contact.

My instincts told me that he was up to no good. So, I went to look for him to ask him about it. I couldn’t find him. Low and behold before we left I saw him leaving the park. When I questioned him about the pictures, in a very non aggressive manner, he became very aggressive and defensive. Telling me that there was no crime in taking pictures of children in a public place. Mind you he was only taking pics of girls. And he was there on an ‘off’ day. I was willing to call the police but left it up to the school to deal with. They did nothing. But it’s scary to think that it is a possibility that pics of my students in their school uniforms are up on the internet for men’s pleasures.

You have to go with that instinct. And use logic.

78

I knew of a teacher here in Taiwan who was a royal pain in the ass to everyone. He was accused of innappropriate behaviour and escorted to the airport by the school’s very fit, black t-shirted head driver. A four-year old girl had told her Mom that he was touching her stomach (ostensibly to help her sleep during naptime) and he was simply disappeared. One minute he was in the dorm, the next, he was gone. No one talked about it. The foreign staff (all newbs) were all too happy to see him go. They didn’t even dwell on it.

79

Cool! :slight_smile: How many have they nailed?[/quote]
I only watched one episode, which was installment #2. I believe they’ve done serveral installments of this thing called “To Catch a Predator”. It does get repetitive after a while as guys come in, get confronted, give lame-ass excuses why they’re there, and then cuffed as they leave the house.

While I’m glad pedophiles are being taken off the streets, it does pose an ethical dillemma for the network.

The funny thing is that some of those guys that were caught have actually seen previous installments of the very same show. Irony at its very best.

From NBC’s own website, here are the stats on their sting operation:

Location // Year // No. of men who showed up
Outside NYC-area // 2004 // 18 men in 2 1/2 days
Washington D.C. suburb // 2005 // 19 men in 3 days
Southern California // 2006 // 50 men in 3 days
Greenville, Ohio // 2006 // 18 men in 3 days
Ft. Myers, Florida // 2006 // 24 men in 3 days

80

No, Oprah is rewarding people who turn in information about pedophiles to the FBI or police,with her own money. She does shows about where they were last seen and what they did. Check her website for more information. It really goes into detail about it because she’s sooo serious about this situation.