[quote=“cctang”]…And yet, when the Blues are elected into office again and again… you ignore it. You don’t really care what the Taiwanese express at the ballot box, you already “know” all there is to know.
.[/quote]
I ignore nothing. I simply understand how democracies works and how people tend to vote for their party hoping for the best while ignoring most of what is actually promised or said. I also live in the bluest of blue cities. By default most of my friends and associates are blue voters. They are disgusted. Polls show it, anecdotal evidence shows it, reports show it, only you and marvelous seem to be in some kind of doubt.
You’re a literalist authoritarian at heart. You can’t comprehend a young blue voter voting for ma and yet being now disgusted that he has actually carried out much of what he said he would.
You also can’t comprehend how this same voter may just vote blue again. Or more likely not vote at all which is how I see the DPP making a comeback. But again, that is a pretty normal pattern for people under a democracy. Just one more example of how Taiwanese and Chinese are different.
in any case, you need to remember that the last time we had a blue president he was Lee Teng Hui. There’s simply no example in voters memories of a president, blue or green, pandering to China.
Yeh. Tell me he is blue. He initiated the corruption of the Taiwan government. I will give him credit for embezzling only a fraction of what A-Bien did. Glad I hold my own, living on hard-earned money as an engineer, rather than taking hand-outs from those two, fabricating words as their propagandist.
Yeh. Tell me he is blue. He initiated the corruption of the Taiwan government. I will give him credit for embezzling only a fraction of what A-Bien did. Glad I hold my own, living on hard-earned money as an engineer, rather than taking hand-outs from those two, fabricating words as their propagandist.[/quote]
Yes, I agree, at heart he was a secret green. But that isn’t the point. The point is that there is no example of a president pandering to China and that the public’s perception of all presidents, blue or green, is that they protect the interests of Taiwan (with respect to China’s political encroachments).
As for Lee bringing in corruption, oh you do make for a good laugh in the morning.
[quote=“LPeterC”]
Yeh. Tell me he is blue. He initiated the corruption of the Taiwan government. I will give him credit for embezzling only a fraction of what A-Bien did. Glad I hold my own, living on hard-earned money as an engineer, rather than taking hand-outs from those two, fabricating words as their propagandist.[/quote]
What??? You mean after decades of corruption of the KMT and the Chiang clique, that is…
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“LPeterC”]
He initiated the corruption of the Taiwan government. I will give him credit for embezzling only a fraction of what A-Bien did. Glad I hold my own, living on hard-earned money as an engineer, rather than taking hand-outs from those two, fabricating words as their propagandist.[/quote]
What??? You mean after decades of corruption of the KMT and the Chiang clique, that is…[/quote]
Technically, that may be true, because the period of Chiang rule that came before was not a government, but a dynastic dictatorship pretty much akin to the risible situation on the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Does no one else see the irony there?
The KMT/CCP/‘socialist’ empire thing seems to be a very stable model of 'government ’ in the Confucius-inspired parts of the world.
I also agree it will be a long term thing, it will come down to who has the most influence over the children who are being born in Taiwan today. Take the example of the proposed train line between Taiwan and China, assuming for a minute that it happens.
If the children being born today grow up in a world where people can travel between Taiwan and China very cheaply and quickly, and end up in universities that have Chinese born and Taiwan born students alike, imagine how that will transform the political landscape when they are in their 30s!
Same goes for hong kong, Unlike a western democratic system where the government has a plan for their country that lats 3-4 years and is focused mainly on what they can do to get re-elected, I would find it hard to believe that the CCP does not have a 50 year plan for Hong Kong, and probably Taiwan as well.
Oh, I could have sworn that I read in an english language taiwan newspaper that they were planning to build a High speed rail network that connects all of china, russia and taiwan as well.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]You’re a literalist authoritarian at heart. You can’t comprehend a young blue voter voting for ma and yet being now disgusted that he has actually carried out much of what he said he would.
You also can’t comprehend how this same voter may just vote blue again. [/quote]
Ah yes, such a wonderful vision of democracy you’ve painted. An electorate absolutely disgusted with the policies of a candidate, but apparently unable to do anything but continue to vote along party lines time and time again. Sign me up!
In any case, you’ve already confirmed what I said above. Another pan-Blue victories at the ballot box doesn’t imply anything; continued pan-Green losses at the ballot box don’t mean anything; the opinions of overseas expats don’t mean anything. The only meaningful electoral outcome, the only “correct” Taiwanese opinion, is the one that happens to reinforce your ideology. Fascinating world you live in.
You’ve already signed up for a political system where you are unable to do anything but continue to support the people in power.
But anyway, nice cherry picking. You forgot to add the next line which is that the disgusted voter will stay home and not vote.
Fact is most people vote along party lines which is why getting people out to vote is so important. The KMT understand that well which is why the week before the 2008 election they were making phone calls to blue supporters urging them to get out and vote because the polls were showing Ma losing. All a ruse but it worked.
On occassion a party is whalloped at the ballot box as the conservatives were in Canada in '96, but that is rare. Landslide victories are now declared when there is a few percentage point difference. A lot of that comes down to who can get their supporters out in addition to attracting a few swing voters.
[quote]
…Another pan-Blue victories at the ballot box doesn’t imply anything; continued pan-Green losses at the ballot box don’t mean anything; the opinions of overseas expats don’t mean anything. The only meaningful electoral outcome, the only “correct” Taiwanese opinion, is the one that happens to reinforce your ideology. Fascinating world you live in.[/quote]
Silly troll. This could have been an interesting discussion.
I tell you what…this is some funny shit right here…
You’ve already signed up for a political system where you are unable to do anything but continue to support the people in power.
But anyway, nice cherry picking. You forgot to add the next line which is that the disgusted voter will stay home and not vote.
Fact is most people vote along party lines which is why getting people out to vote is so important. The KMT understand that well which is why the week before the 2008 election they were making phone calls to blue supporters urging them to get out and vote because the polls were showing Ma losing. All a ruse but it worked.
On occassion a party is whalloped at the ballot box as the conservatives were in Canada in '96, but that is rare. Landslide victories are now declared when there is a few percentage point difference. A lot of that comes down to who can get their supporters out in addition to attracting a few swing voters.
[quote]
…Another pan-Blue victories at the ballot box doesn’t imply anything; continued pan-Green losses at the ballot box don’t mean anything; the opinions of overseas expats don’t mean anything. The only meaningful electoral outcome, the only “correct” Taiwanese opinion, is the one that happens to reinforce your ideology. Fascinating world you live in.[/quote]
Silly troll. This could have been an interesting discussion.[/quote]
[quote=“Poagao”]I think their official name in the party charter might be “The Nationalist Party of China”. “Chinese Nationalist Party” is the term the Taipei Times came up for them. But I agree we should come up with amusing nicknames for them. That’s always fun.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t their charter be in Chinese, not English?
Do you know 中國國民黨??
Do you know that this can be translated as “Chinese Nationalist Party” and is all around the world, not just by the Taipei Times???
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“Poagao”]I think their official name in the party charter might be “The Nationalist Party of China”. “Chinese Nationalist Party” is the term the Taipei Times came up for them. But I agree we should come up with amusing nicknames for them. That’s always fun.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t their charter be in Chinese, not English?
Do you know 中國國民黨??
Do you know that this can be translated as “Chinese Nationalist Party” and is all around the world, not just by the Taipei Times???[/quote]
There is an English-language version, which reads “The Kuomintang of China”.
Yes.
Of course it can be translated any number of ways, and is, by different parties, all over the world. I could translate the 民主進步當 as the Democracy Improvement Party. But of course they don’t call themselves that.
Was it just Lee? I mean, I now know that Lee “initiated the corruption” of the Edenic Taiwan government. But once Lee had led the KMT government into a state of sin, I thought maybe a large part of the formerly spotless Kuomintang membership, and not just Lee, was upset with Ma for actually attempting to fight organized crime–you know, like what this writer said:
[quote]The public was well aware of the criticism that KMT officials’ cooperation with organized crime left them unable to effectively combat criminal influence in politics. If it aggressively prosecuted organized criminals, the KMT would be undercutting part of its support base. Indeed, with the DPP gaining ground, the KMT’s ability to win elections without the help of gangsters was increasingly doubtful.
Ma, appointed justice minister in 1993, did his job too effectively: his vigorous prosecution of corrupt officials ate away at the dark heart of the party machine and became intolerable to many KMT legislators and local faction leaders. In 1996 Lee shifted him to minister without portfolio.[/quote]–Denny Roy, Taiwan: A Political History, p. 206
[quote=“Poagao”]3. Of course it can be translated any number of ways, and is, by different parties, all over the world. I could translate the 民主進步當 as the Democracy Improvement Party. But of course they don’t call themselves that.[/quote] But actually, that might be appropriate coz it would abbreviate to the “DIP’s”…
[quote=“Poagao”][quote=“ludahai”][quote=“Poagao”]I think their official name in the party charter might be “The Nationalist Party of China”. “Chinese Nationalist Party” is the term the Taipei Times came up for them. But I agree we should come up with amusing nicknames for them. That’s always fun.
[/quote]
Wouldn’t their charter be in Chinese, not English?
Do you know 中國國民黨??
Do you know that this can be translated as “Chinese Nationalist Party” and is all around the world, not just by the Taipei Times???[/quote]
There is an English-language version, which reads “The Kuomintang of China”.
Yes.
Of course it can be translated any number of ways, and is, by different parties, all over the world. I could translate the 民主進步當 as the Democracy Improvement Party. But of course they don’t call themselves that.[/quote]
当 does not mean part 党 does (sorry, just being pedantic), secondly calling 民主进步党 the "Democracy Improvement Party " would be a horrible translation. It doesn’t make any sense. When you translate something it has to make sense, don’t get me wrong Democratic Progressive Party doesn’t make any sense either, but it at least sounds better. The best I think you could do is just ignore the 进步 part of the name and call them the Democratic Party. But each to his own. Much like 中国国民党 is translated as “Guomindang” they simply ignore the 中国, if you were translating it strictly as Pinyin, it should be “Zhongguo Guomindang”.
My point was that individuals can translate names any way they please, but ultimately it is up to the person or organization to dictate their official name.