Rather amusing article regarding Transparency Internationals latest report on Taiwan.
The sad thing is the gov is right. There is massive corruption but not at the lower levels. In fact the first reports from the group a few years back were clear on that: while Taiwan’s legislative body and business groups are prone to bribery, kickbacks, and all manner of corruption, on a day to day level people are not asked for bribed from police, civil servants, doctors and so on.
Of course I read it. But hilarity aside, and I do enjoy watching the Ma admin get egg on its face, the fact remains the conclusions are almost certainly wrong.
When was the last time you heard someone pay a bride for a simple government service? Or a doctor?
I think one of the question was have you ever paid a bribe (if you were over 18) and more than 30% had. That’s likely because if you want to rezone land for a house, or get your wife or kid the famous doctor, or sort out some matter under local jurisdiction, you are likely to have paid a bribe. I have people tell me personally they have paid these.
Of course it’s not as bad as China or Vietnam or India or some African nation, but there is a culture of corruption here, vote buying is still rampant in rural areas. I am even aware of how much it costs.
I’d agree that the real serious problem is at the top end, not the bottom, county government politicians being the worst in my experience.
Yes, but those things happen in any country. The point though is if these things are pervasive. I don’t think they are. Certainly not enough for Taiwan to be rank as one of the worst countries in the world.
Also it said have you paid this in the last months. How often do people rezone land, or need a famous doctor?
And pay for the famous doctor? Are people nuts? I go to one of the best neurologists in the country. Never paid a bride yet.
I honestly think this is more about the people of Taiwan than the government. People don’t have to pay these things, they just want to get some advantage.
How do people get land rezoned and approved as a dwelling? Hong bao to the local borough planning official. That case that I personally heard about supposedly occurred 10 years ago. I doubt anything has changed since.
The doctor bit I haven’t seen personally but I know it still happens, just to a lesser extent than before.
I forgot to mention that it’s well known in many parts of Taiwan that you can pay a special fee to get your vehicle to pass road worthy inspection. I haven’t done it but I think there are supposedly streets of mechanics outside some of the inspection places that can do this for you.
I know but I think you are missing my point. That stuff all happens in Canada, too. In my home province immigrants buying drivers licenses is a big issue. People also pay bribes for doctors, and of course land rezoning is corrupt everywhere. Mining and logging are essentially massive giveaways with myriad illegalities.
So why does Canada get a sterling report and Taiwan is labelled one of the worst in the world? If this is at all accurate then corruption must be so common and pervasive in the daily life of ordinary people. It must be also a necessity to get by.
I don’t believe that is the case and furthermore neither did Transparency International just 4 years ago.
I think that the general feeling of unhappiness with the government might to blame for this as people probably felt more negative about it than before, but I am very sure they have made a mistake with the numbers. I promised a taxi driver an extra 50 bucks if he gets me to work on time. He did. Is that a bribe? More importantly, would I say it is a bribe if I got a phone call from some special organization?
I think those who responded over stated seriously what they had or had not been doing and they miscalculated the numbers.
Taiwanese officials do realize they buy their allies right, and do so by cutting them a large cheque? Ergo facto Mayinjeou retardo this is a VERY corrupt nation, even if everything else is squeaky clean.
[quote=“Nuit”]But did you actually read the article?
Cheng has the answers:
:roflmao:[/quote]
This exactly the same excuse they use when a foreigner of any sort catches them doing something wrong or stupid… It’s all a misunderstanding … This is their classic answer.
MM you ignored my point about vote buying, it’s still rampant here. Ex county government officials are being prosecuted left right and centre and that still doesn’t cover half the guys that are in power now.
In a truly corrupt countries, officials left and right do not get in trouble for vote buying or other corruption. China has far greater problem with corruption and they get away with it. In fact if anyone tries to stop or expose them, they get persecuted. The fact that people are getting in trouble for corruption means they are doing something about it.
I agree, Taiwan isn’t so bad compared to other places, but it’s nowhere near. Western style democracy either , with some exceptions.
Look at the way county governments here operate, it’s very similar to a county government in China, they forcibly take farmland and rezone it for kickbacks. Many if not most government projects are dogged by corruption too, including the airport line, the HSr line, the overpasses in Taipei, the new twin star project in Taipei…the list goes on.
The major reason you see concrete on every river and stream in Taiwan is corruption, as the central governor allocates a flood control budget as a way to pass out money to local government allies , they then get massive kickbacks from these gravel extraction and concrete schemes.
China also investigates corruption on a case by case basis, Corruption levels are probably not much different between Taiwan and China, the major difference is China is 60 times bigger and had multiples of economic growth rate of Taiwan, so the money to be made from corruption is much bigger.
I know that. My point remains, is the level of corruption here one of the worst in Asia and the world especially on a daily basis? No, and TI understood that 4 years ago. Now they have changed their minds. That requires an explanation which is not provided.
I understand the level of corruption here especially at the county level. But don’t forget that Taipei and New Taipei make up about 40% of the population. Miaoli has 550,000 people. Yunlin 730,000, Chiayi 550,000, Pingtung 900,000 and so on. So among these areas, the most corrupt townships represent a fraction of Taiwan’s population. Go to rural Virginia where they blow the tops off mountains and poison water supplies with immunity and tell me county level corruption is so bad in Taiwan it deserves special condemnation (actually it does but more for the collusion between organize crime and business).
Actually my real beef is that this report is obviously flawed, and ridiculously so, which allows the government here to safely ignore it. That pisses me off. There are serious issues with as you say vote buying, construction, land theft, graft, etc and TI focuses on people paying for a good doctor? Something you don’t actually ever need to do. :loco:
Taipei has plenty of corruption too, recent twin star project, airport line etc, clearing out old veteran camps in questionable deals. It’s better run than the rest of the island, but not clean either.
Again, compared to what? Does that stuff not happen in New York, London, Paris, Rome, Chicago?
Anyway, we both agree there is a great deal of corruption in politics. But this report was about people’s daily dealings.
I’ve travelled in lots of corrupt places, and I’m sure you have too, where you need to tip officials and police at every turn. Taiwan is not like that. The report suggests it is.
There are plenty of places like that. I heard Russia is like that… you have to bribe officials almost at every turn (like traffic cops who will give bogus tickets unless you bribe him).
Few people ever experience what you hear about in the news. For most people they are not going to notice corruption because it’s not like they have to bribe traffic cops, custom agents, or government workers.
I certainly do not notice any corruption, but then I don’t own land, and have no dealing with high level officials. Every government agencies or its workers have been very professional. At least Taiwanese law enforcement doesn’t trample on your constitutional rights like what the US does now.
Again, compared to what? Does that stuff not happen in New York, London, Paris, Rome, Chicago?
Anyway, we both agree there is a great deal of corruption in politics. But this report was about people’s daily dealings.
I’ve travelled in lots of corrupt places, and I’m sure you have too, where you need to tip officials and police at every turn. Taiwan is not like that. The report suggests it is.[/quote]
I agree, the report is completely incorrect in that regard. There is almost no obvious low level corruption in day to day dealings.
There’s a lot of corruption from senior administrators and officials. Even in schools principals can get kickbacks from lunch vendors and appointing teachers. To get a public school appointment you need guanxi or money, as far As I understand the system. Guanxi is just a form of corruption isn’t it?
In ITRI where I worked for a ahort while the head of department was corrupt, he was farming out all the project to affiliates of his. He was also a professor (recently most professors in taiwan were caught fiddling their budgets and expenses).
Within one week of arriving in ITRI, the vice head, a very honest genuine lady, was complaining to me about this. Seems nobody could do anything or they were afraid to do anything about it. The head is appointed for 5 year terms each and it’s probably something they all do, so their strategy is to wait it out and hope for a better head in a few years.
