Taiwan: independence/(re)unification/status quo/referendum?


#661

The Republic of China isn’t recognized as a country because the Generalissimo was a stubborn man. When the Americans found out that PRC supporters were going to introduce a resolution to kick out the ROC and give the seat to the PRC, the USA conferred with Australia (Canada had already thrown us under the bus) to craft a 2nd resolution whereby both ROC and PRC would be recognized, however, the ROC would have to give up its permanent seat on the Security Council to the PRC. This did not sit well with the Generalissimo so he allowed the 1st resolution to go through, overestimating the ROC’s support in the UN and lost. The ROC is independent, however, in his hubris the Generalissimo gave up recognition in the UN and, as a consequence, all other countries.


#662

That was 40 years ago. Now Taiwan is not recognized because the “free West” belongs to the cult of money and seems paralyzed by a related fear of China, which in said cult is believed to a god and would cause them some loss (do you have any other explanation of what the countries in “the West” would need to be afraid they might lose if, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the EU, in a joint move, were to recognize Taiwan in addition to recognizing the PRC?).

Talking about gaining something: the world as a whole would gain a lot if “the West” were to recognize Taiwan: Vietnam, the Philippines, and many other countries would breeze more freely, and China would realize that they, too, need to develop diplomacy and an attitude of adhering to international standards of behaviour.

:2cents:


#663

I politely disagree, yuli. The issue at hand is that the ROC claims to be China, and the PRC claims to be China, and there can be only one. What I think would really help Taiwan out is if it completely relinquished any fanciful claim to the mainland and explicitly told its allies: we 100% welcome you to forge formal diplomatic ties with Beijing SO LONG AS you continue to recognize Taipei as the capital of the Republic of China, a sovereign state.

The logic behind this is that Taiwan cannot continue asking its allies to ignore China’s growing importance. The Vatican is a stalwart ally for now, but if China ever can guarantee it will not interfere in the Church, the Holy See will switch allegiance in a heartbeat. What’s saving 23 million souls when you can save 1.3 billion?

It’s true for other allies, as well, but for economic reasons. They get a lot out of friendship with Taiwan but could get just as much out of friendship with China. The current diplomatic “ceasefire” is only putting off the inevitable.

On the contrary, assume Taiwan changes its policy to allow allies to form bonds with China. Beijing will of course instantly reject it on the One China principle, which is when these 21 countries can begin exerting pressure by continuously asking for bilateral recognition WHILE MAINTAINING ties with Taipei. When the ridiculousness of a one-China policy is out there for the whole world to see, China may, in time (and perhaps quite a lot of time), eventually agree to it.


#664

Oh, i thought i was talking about Taiwan, not the ROC (that political dinosaur). :slight_smile:

So you say those claims still exist? I had heard is that they have been relinquished (various people in Taiwan with whom i talked about this question told me that) - it wouldn’t be the first time, though, that i was wrong about something. (I’ll look this all up tomorrow.)

If they really have not been relinquished - I will accept your point for the moment - then i’d say it’s high time that Taiwan free itself from the ROC.

I am sure the majority of the people of Taiwan do NOT support any claims on mainland territory - but you say, implicitly, that even the DPP has not relinquished those claims? Why would that be so?


#665

Oh, i thought I was talking about Taiwan, not the ROC (that political dinosaur). :slight_smile:

So you say those claims still exist? I had heard is that they have been relinquished (various people in Taiwan with whom i talked about this question told me that) - it wouldn’t be the first time, though, that I was wrong about something. (I’ll look this all up tomorrow.)

If they really have not been relinquished - I will accept your point for the moment - then I’d say it’s high time that Taiwan free itself from the ROC.

I am sure the majority of the people of Taiwan do NOT support any claims on mainland territory - but you say, implicitly, that even the DPP has not relinquished those claims? Why would that be so?[/quote]

Relinquishing these claims means altering the constitutional boundaries of the ROC. That has not happened. Whether a current government actively pursues these claims is a different issue.


#666

^^ Yup.

That’s why there’s still a Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, even though there isn’t any place called Mongolia or Tibet in Taiwan, and why mainland affairs are handled by the Mainland Affairs Council instead of the foreign ministry. When my wife was in school, maps of the ROC showed all of China, plus Mongolia, as ROC territory and stubbornly referred to Beijing as Beiping (北平).

But this brings out the weird catch-22 in Ma’s China policy. He recognizes one China only when it’s convenient; at other times, he treats the PRC like a different country. For example, the fact that Taiwan’s top China minister and China’s top Taiwan minister have referred to each other as “minister” (主委 and 主任, respectively) indicates an implicit recognition of one another’s legitimacy. There’s also the strangeness of the way the government protests when a website lists “Taiwan, Province of China” – which is factually correct according to the Ma administration. And then there’s the recent directive for newly made maps to depict Taiwan and China as separate colors even though the KMT heavyweights insist they are two parts of the same country.

I’m not faulting the administration. But the strange often contradictory things that come out of its portrayal of China as an integral part of the ROC but also not just underscores the absurd complexity of Taiwan’s (and China’s) current situation.


#667

AFAIK, any changes to the constitutional boundaries of ROC ie relinquishing claims on the mainland, would trigger the invasion clause of China’s anti-secession act.


#668

If Taiwanese are not willing to take that risk, they probably do not feel like independence is such an important issue. I do not think they really care beyond the conversations they have with liberal English teachers anyways. Taiwanese rather buy cheap tickets with itineraries through Beijing, the largest slave holder in Mainland China (Foxconn) is a Taiwanese company and more than one million Taiwanese already make good money in Mainland China. Fooling the foreigner is just another part of the game Taiwanese play with Mainland China. :2cents:


#669

Can you explain that bit more?

I’ve had to realize that speaking with Taiwanese from all walks of life, among whom all of those who i had a chance to talk politics with, told me that Taiwan had no intention of taking any part of land from China, has been very effective at misleading me into thinking that there were no such claims any more. But that’s my own fault - i could have looked for sources. :doh:

Sure, the Taiwanese may to the most part not have any such claims, but the ROC still has them on their books, as i confirmed from several other sources after Hokwongwei had made me aware of the problem. What a pile of crock! Where are Taiwan’s friends that tell them, “why don’t you give up this ROC stuff, you’re making an ass of yourselves”? Why does the DPP not make it part of their program to eliminate territorial claims on the mainland from the constitution? :ponder:


#670

If Taiwanese are not willing to take that risk, they probably do not feel like independence is such an important issue. I do not think they really care beyond the conversations they have with liberal English teachers anyways. Taiwanese rather buy cheap tickets with itineraries through Beijing, the largest slave holder in Mainland China (Foxconn) is a Taiwanese company and more than one million Taiwanese already make good money in Mainland China. Fooling the foreigner is just another part of the game Taiwanese play with Mainland China. :2cents:[/quote]

I agree with everything here except for that weird “foreigners vs Chinese people battle to the death” chip hsinhai78’s got on his shoulder.


#671

By claiming to own mainland China (and Mongolia; CKS was greedy), the ROC is playing by the one China rule.

Beijing’s take: "Of course there’s only one China, ranging from Xinjiang in the west to Taiwan in the east, and the capital of China is Beijing."
Taipei’s take: “Of course there’s only one China, ranging from Sinkiang in the west to Taiwan in the east, and the capital of China is Taipei.”

If the ROC constitution is amended to relinquish that claim, it is a de facto move toward independence from a greater Chinese framework. Depending on interpretation, this could violate Article 2 of the Anti-Secession Law:

Article 8 continues:

So, one argument goes, if Taiwan makes any changes to its constitution which emphasize its separateness from China, Beijing is not just allowed to but legally required to start shooting the place up. Of course, in reality, it depends on just how much latitude Beijing is willing to give Taiwan, though we have no way of knowing for sure how it would react.


#672

Can you explain that bit more?

I’ve had to realize that speaking with Taiwanese from all walks of life, among whom all of those who I had a chance to talk politics with, told me that Taiwan had no intention of taking any part of land from China, has been very effective at misleading me into thinking that there were no such claims any more. But that’s my own fault - i could have looked for sources. :doh:

Sure, the Taiwanese may to the most part not have any such claims, but the ROC still has them on their books, as i confirmed from several other sources after Hokwongwei had made me aware of the problem. What a pile of crock! Where are Taiwan’s friends that tell them, “why don’t you give up this ROC stuff, you’re making an ass of yourselves”? Why does the DPP not make it part of their program to eliminate territorial claims on the mainland from the constitution? :ponder:[/quote]

I don’t know much about it, that’s just what I remember from 2005 or 2006 when the anti-secession law went into effect. That was pretty much the bipartisan reading of it in Taiwan at the time, and one reason why Chen didn’t try to put anything into place to change it during his administration.

Or so I remember from news at the time.


#673

If Taiwanese are not willing to take that risk, they probably do not feel like independence is such an important issue. I do not think they really care beyond the conversations they have with liberal English teachers anyways. Taiwanese rather buy cheap tickets with itineraries through Beijing, the largest slave holder in Mainland China (Foxconn) is a Taiwanese company and more than one million Taiwanese already make good money in Mainland China. Fooling the foreigner is just another part of the game Taiwanese play with Mainland China. :2cents:[/quote]

I agree with everything here except for that weird “foreigners vs Chinese people battle to the death” chip hsinhai78’s got on his shoulder.[/quote]

What I mean is that Taiwanese are good at cozying up with both Mainland China and Western democracies whenever it suits them. I.e. business with Mainland China = we are one country narrative and then when it comes to visa free access it’s suddenly all about human rights. Taiwanese have two sets of stories they tell different people basically.


#674

I think they have two sets of stories they tell themselves, as well. Like the way so many young people today say “I’m not Chinese” but refer to Chinese people as “mainlanders.”


#675

And that is why the rest of the world (or at least those parts and people that matter) do not care about Taiwanese independence. Taiwanese want it all: privileged access to Mainland China with a Taibaozheng but at the same time they complain that they need a Taibaozheng in the first place. But guess what: if you want independence you won’t get privileged access for your slaveholding companies (Foxconn etc al) and neither will you get to work in Mainland China. You’ll need a visa like any other foreigner. THAT however is something your average Sun flower hippie cannot comprehend. They just want to lock Mainland China out of Taiwan and get 45,000 a month for having a bachelor in business without any internships or experience or foreign language skills and still be able to enslave Mainland Chinese in their Taiwanese factories. :roflmao: :2cents:

Don’t judge Taiwanese by how friendly they are to Westerners.
Judge them by what they demand for themselves - democracy, human rights and recognition - and what they give to others: slave labor in Mainland China and abuse of foreign laborers in Taiwan. For those familiar with Star Trek: Taiwanese are the Ferengi of Asia.


#676

So Terry Gou is part of the Sunflower Movement? :laughing:

Nice sleight of hand, hsinhai. Fuck, could you be any more disingenuous? :unamused:


#677

A lot of people fit the description above. But I don’t think the Sunflowers do. Their concern obviously isn’t getting rich, otherwise they’d be in the 國產黨.


#678

Well 45,000 is not exactly getting rich, but considering these people have useless degrees, no internship or work experience and lack any usable foreign language skills, it’s high on their agenda. Basically these children are like workers during the industrial revolution destroying machinery that renders their position obsolete. And really - these Sunflower kids would run away and hide if the PLA ever invaded. Or they might as well bend over like their ancestors have done when the Japanese came.


#679

Please don’t subject us to more of your fetishes. Thanks.


#680

I’d like to take this opportunity to remind posters to kindly keep it civil.
:bow: