Tips for Learning Chinese (Part II)

Language Learning Chinese
1

After a long time semi-trying to teach myself Chinese I decided to get myself a tutor. This is a lot better however, I’m still not sure what is the best way to learn.

Do you think I need to learn pinyin? So when i write down new words I have learnt I can write Chinese romanization in pinyin? At the minute I am writing them in my own form of romanization. eg. to go - chew (4th tone). (I don’t write the tones like this but i can’t show this any other way on the computer)

How about b, p, m,f? I know these but at the minute writing tham is very slow and reading too takes a lot longer than reading the romanization.

Also, is there any methods anyone can suggest for learning the different tones? I am incapable of saying the 3rd tone and struggle to distinguish between 2nd and 3rd. Is this really important?

A lot of questions, but any advice would be appreciated.

2

I would go with pinyin myself. It worked for me. If you are interested in learning characters, learn them as you go along. Eventually you won’t have speak Chinese, because you’ll be able to read all the signs and menus on your own!! There is some truth to this.

3

There’s no best way to learn Chinese. Every man his own. The Chinese do it by being born Chinese. This is smart. But for you, like it is for me, it’s going to be much more difficult.
BPMF and “pinyin” are very similar in terms of accuracy and efficiency. You can learn both and it’s even a good idea; compared to learning characters, it’s a joke.
Tones are as important as you will make them. As a non-native speaker, you will mostly be forgiven, but in a tough environment, tones may equal survival. Look for previous threads on that subject, you’ll get some answers.

EB

4

I think learning b, p, m, f, is especially useful in Taiwan for two reasons: 1)everyone but the elderly are familiar with this system, so asking someone how to say a particular character and getting them to write it phonetically is easy. 2) you can learn basic stroke order (ie, how to write Chinese characters) from learning how to write b,p,m,f, properly. 3)most kids’ books will have this system beside the Chinese characters, so you can use them to learn your Chinese characters.

Sorry, that’s more than two.

5

Yes, definitely learn pinyin. The most convenient Chinese-English dictionaries like the ABC Chinese-English Comprehensive Dictionary have entries sorted by pinyin, so you can look words up just like in an English dictionary. Even when they’re not so ordered, good dictionaries usually have a pinyin index. This lookup method is far, far faster than using other methods like stroke count or character components. It’s even faster than using bopomofo, because no matter how much practice you get using bopomofo, I’m willing to bet that it will always be easier for Westerners to use their native alphabet.

6

I’d say do whatever is best for you. I think the general idea, though, is that you want to eventually ditch Pin-Yin system for the actual characters. I never took a class, yet, so I have my own way and that works fine for me. When I learn a new word, rather than imagining how it would be spelled with PinYin, I try to immidiatly associate it with the character(assuming that is possible)…when that is impossible (i.e. I am in the middle of ordering food, and it would be awkward to ask the person to write down the character), I associate it with the Pin-Yin. That system has worked fine for me, and I can get around Taiwan and get what I need just fine…and I typically learn something new everyday. I’m pretty far off from being able to read a newspaper, though…but that’s my goal before next summer(at least knowing enough characters to read the paper, completely understanding it is something totally different).

Anyway, I think the key is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE… you’re in Taiwan, so that shouldn’t be hard. And when you get good enough, flip on the tube and pick out what you can and can’t understand…and when you can’t understand something, grab a dictionary.

Tone IS important, by the way…I had people stare at me and scratch their heads countless times, and then I change up the tone and then they get it. Stroke order of the characters is pretty arbitrary, though. I can only think of two instances where that comes in handy. First, is using a chinese dictionary that is organized from what the first stroke and stroke count of the character are…and second, ordering food in a local restaurant and using the “Zheng” character (as in the second character of Chiang Kai-sheks chinese name) on the little ordering slip to show the quantity of an item you want. I’d imagine that if you were off with the stroke order there, they’d be like “What the fuck?”

7

In studying Japanese and French, I realized that you shouldn’t really approach one language the same as you would another. During the first year of studying Japanese, I only learned two pronouns (I and you) because names are always prefered over him, her, he she, etc. I hadn’t learned them because they’re just not that important. In French, I learned all the different pronouns one could possibly use within the first few weeks because, like English, they are.

So Chinese… what is the best way to approach Chinese? Learning the tones first?

8

[quote=“Danimal”]In studying Japanese and French, I realized that you shouldn’t really approach one language the same as you would another. During the first year of studying Japanese, I only learned two pronouns (I and you) because names are always prefered over him, her, he she, etc. I hadn’t learned them because they’re just not that important. In French, I learned all the different pronouns one could possibly use within the first few weeks because, like English, they are.

So Chinese… what is the best way to approach Chinese? Learning the tones first?[/quote]

As well as different languages needing different approaches, I’d say different people do too. What works for one person may not work for another.

Yes, the tones are important, but you can’t really “just learn the tones” by themselves. You need to have something to apply the tones to.

I’d say it would be useful to spend some time getting the pronunciation of the pinyin (or BPMF) really good. You may need some help with this, or at least a good CD with pronunciations on.

Another option is to use something like Pimsleur, as it will help get you up and running with quite a few basic words and sentence structures very quickly, and their “listen & repeat” format does help you get the pronunciation right and your ear tuned more to the chinese sounds.

For me, I found starting off with Pimsleur gave me a great basis from which I branched out to other learning techniques. In fact I only completed Pimsleur Part 1 and half of part 2, before I moved on to other options, and I’m now taking lessons in Taiwan. However when I first came to Taiwan and initially tried out my Pimsleur chinese, locals were quite impressed with my pronunciation and tones, which all came from Pimsleur, so it has stood me in good stead.

One other thing is that you might find it better not to start learning characters until you’ve got some of the spoke language under your belt. Otherwise you might find you are overloading yourself with too much to learn in one go.

Ben

9

[quote=“Dragonbones”]
Yes, definitely learn Pinyin. The most convenient Chinese-English dictionaries like the ABC Chinese-English Comprehensive Dictionary have entries sorted by Pinyin, so you can look words up just like in an English dictionary. Even when they’re not so ordered, good dictionaries usually have a Pinyin index. This lookup method is far, far faster than using other methods like stroke count or character components. It’s even faster than using bopomofo, because no matter how much practice you get using bopomofo, I’m willing to bet that it will always be easier for Westerners to use their native alphabet. [/quote]

Well, it seems like the clear choice is to learn both. I learned pinyin first and then thought learning ㄅㄆㄇㄈ would help me for the reasons Fearsome Orange mentioned.
Once you already know the sounds it takes only a short time to match the characters to a sound.

10

[Moderator’s note: this thread is a continuation of: Tips for learning Chinese]

[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“miltownkid”]
Start reading kids books as soon as you can and move up in a step by step fashion (crawl, walk then run).[/quote]

The second key is repetition. Going slower rather than faster will net you more proficiency and facility with the language, as you will be able to thoroughly dominate and truly use the words you have learned. “Bravely forging ahead” without fully assimilating what has been ‘covered’ will not do this, unless you are one of the minority. There ARE students who can learn with no help whatsoever. Unfortunately, most of these become language teachers, and keep the myth that “anyone can learn that way” alive.[/quote]

This is so crucial it should be repoeated time again with “practice everyday”

not that good at mandarin now… but trying…

11

This might be useful to other beginners just starting out.

I’ve been taking a lot of private lessons recently and of course the first thing we did was pronunciation. First and fourth tones didn’t take much time of course, but differentiation between second and third tones was really difficult for me. The textbook explanations of those tones(second is just raising the tone, third is lowering and then raising the tone) didn’t help at all, no matter how many times they were reiterated by the teacher. After a while I found out what they wanted based on changing how I spoke the tones and the teachers’ reactions to those changes. In my mind, what they accepted as second and third tones seemed to deserve a different explanation.

When I spoke a second tone, I would first lower the tone a bit, and then raise it, as they explained the third tone should be. For third tones, I used a slower and less emphatic fourth tone. After that change in mindset, I was able to produce second and third tones that the tutors were satisfied with. I should also add that I had 7 different teachers at this time, so it probably wasn’t just someone lazy not caring about a student’s mistakes in pronunciation.

I hope that helps out anyone else with the same problem. I’ve only been learning Mandarin for a short time (just on the first chapters of TLI’s second book now), so if anybody with more experience feels that this is advice that will lead to pronunciation problems down the road, feel free to correct me.

12

Yes, I think it will lead to problems all right. The tonal contours you describe are totally unlike the actual phonetic tones. That said, the “usual” explanations are also incorrect.

Second tone is a rising tone. It has to start low so that it can rise.

Third tone is NOT usually a “dipping” tone as is printed in so many textbooks. If you go into the phonetics lab (misspent youth on my part) you’ll see that it’s more often than not just a low tone. It doesn’t rise or fall; it might rise just a tiny bit, but generally if you pronounce it as a short low tone it will be acceptable. This is something called “half-third” tone, which is what the theoretical third tone turns into when it’s pronounced “quickly” (i.e., most times in normal speech).

Remember, too, that a course that spends weeks just pronouncing syllables at the beginning is, um, probably a tad too traditional to be incorporating the latest research into language acquisition… :sunglasses:

13

I finally went and enrolled myself in TLI to force myself to study more regularly. After five months (about 2/3rds of the first book) and forcing myself to sit through a teen soap opera three times a week with a dictionary beside me, I found my Chinese had finally improved to the point that I could communicate just about everything I needed to say with friends, students, and salespeople without a dictionary–and everything that I wanted to say, with one.

Studying at TLI helped because my teacher clarified some of the grammar and pronunciation issues that were troubling me. Also, I was taking Taiwanese at the same time, which helped since the Mandarin they speak here in Kaohsiung is so often mixed with, or pronounced like, Taiwanese.

Watching soap operas helped because they were funny enough/the boys were good-looking enough that I didn’t mind spending an hour watching them even when I couldn’t understand 98% of what was being said. I was completely blown away when one day I realized I could actually distinguish words! And from that point on, it became easier to look things up in the dictionary and learn more words. The vocabulary in soap operas is often not too large or overly difficult, and it’s repeated often. Plus, they use a lot of the same words that my students and younger friends use. So, I got to hear them a lot when I went out.

After building my vocabulary this way, it became more enjoyable for me to read and learn vocabulary by reading children’s books. Well…that, and the fact that I finally got smart and started buying the ones with English translations already in them. :blush:

14

[quote=“ironlady”]Yes, I think it will lead to problems all right. The tonal contours you describe are totally unlike the actual phonetic tones. That said, the “usual” explanations are also incorrect.

Second tone is a rising tone. It has to start low so that it can rise.

Third tone is NOT usually a “dipping” tone as is printed in so many textbooks. If you go into the phonetics lab (misspent youth on my part) you’ll see that it’s more often than not just a low tone. It doesn’t rise or fall; it might rise just a tiny bit, but generally if you pronounce it as a short low tone it will be acceptable. This is something called “half-third” tone, which is what the theoretical third tone turns into when it’s pronounced “quickly” (i.e., most times in normal speech).

Remember, too, that a course that spends weeks just pronouncing syllables at the beginning is, um, probably a tad too traditional to be incorporating the latest research into language acquisition… :sunglasses:[/quote]

Is this a taiwan only thing? Chris was explaining to me a few weeks ago that in Taiwan we use what is called a clipped third tone. In China the third tone seems much more distinct.

In any case, this is fascinating as like the person above, I started pronouncing a decent 3rd tone after listening to my teacher for a long time and just imitating. It does seem as if I am making a short fourth tone with just a tiny rise at the end. It’s like I do a fourth tone but then releases it at the end instead of tightening up as I would for a fourth.

Er, it’s been way too long since I studied linguistics but I think you get my laymen’s explanation.

One thing I have been having fun with lately is the character recognition function on my Oxford Dictionary on my Palm. I’ve been finally learning how to say all those warning signs in Chinese you see all over the MRT system. Of course they all have English but it’s nice to know how to say them in Chinese. The function is also great at restaurants so you can figure out how to pronounce the whole dish you want.

15

[quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“ironlady”]Yes, I think it will lead to problems all right. The tonal contours you describe are totally unlike the actual phonetic tones. That said, the “usual” explanations are also incorrect.

Second tone is a rising tone. It has to start low so that it can rise.

Third tone is NOT usually a “dipping” tone as is printed in so many textbooks. If you go into the phonetics lab (misspent youth on my part) you’ll see that it’s more often than not just a low tone. It doesn’t rise or fall; it might rise just a tiny bit, but generally if you pronounce it as a short low tone it will be acceptable. This is something called “half-third” tone, which is what the theoretical third tone turns into when it’s pronounced “quickly” (i.e., most times in normal speech).

Remember, too, that a course that spends weeks just pronouncing syllables at the beginning is, um, probably a tad too traditional to be incorporating the latest research into language acquisition… :sunglasses:[/quote]

Is this a taiwan only thing? Chris was explaining to me a few weeks ago that in Taiwan we use what is called a clipped third tone. In China the third tone seems much more distinct.[/quote]

It’s not just a Taiwan only thing. The tones are more properly represented by the chart below (from wiki). In regular speech, the third tone is truncated and it never really goes back up at all. In sentences where the last character ends on a third tone and you want some dramatic effect, you would then use the entire full third tone. Also, the full third tone is typically used when reciting poetry.

16

The whole point is that in normal speech, MOST instances of the third tone are NOT “fall-rise” as shown in the chart. They are “fall” only in a lower register, or have only a very minimal rise. If you go into a phonetics lab and really look at the contour of the tones you can see this, although it may not be obvious just from listening.

17

Interesting. In my case I would say it was obvious from listening, but I had a lot of charts and received wisdom to overcome in accepting what I was hearing.

18

I have a tip that goes along with my Middlebury bias, which I’ll just throw out here real quick. The Middlebury folks seem to think that the more you use a language, the faster you learn it. So, if you could have a conversation in English it’d be much better to just have it in Chinese. They also had some research there which indicated that people with the language pledge underwent some temporary cognitive changes, that the native language has to be (rapidly) re-learned after study.

This is fairly simple, just take advantage of your opportunities to speak (and listen to) Chinese to the fullest, and create opportunities where you can. Speak Chinese with your classmates, and make Taiwanese friends. At Middlebury/PiB this led to huge speaking proficiency gains. Several ICLP students think I am absolutely insane for speaking Chinese so much. They think it is either inconvenient, or unnecessary, to speak Chinese outside class (some, even with Taiwanese friends). But then it’s the same students who think it’s so strange, several months later start complaining that they haven’t made any spoken Chinese progress, only reading/listening progress.

One blog by a former ICLP student (stealthchinese.wordpress.com/) estimates that an average immersion program student each day has “25 minutes to speak [Chinese]” - about 2 hours a week. I have about 24.5 hours of out-of-class conversation, half listening and thus building up my understanding of word usage: I heard 弄 (nong) used over a hundred times in maybe eight different contexts continually hearing new usages, and speaking and thus putting my vocabulary to real use.

To take this further, find people who share your intellectual interests and talk about these sorts of topics with them. I for example like politics, history, literature (in China, Lu Xun, Hu Shi et al.) economics, cooking, law, ethics, and philosophy. Your interests will often collude with what you’ll use the Chinese for, thus building up your ability in your field in addition to working on your vocabulary. You’ll also find where you are lacking - I ran into, how do you say “billable hour” in Chinese? That is a pretty serious gap, in my opinion, not knowing how to say billable hour. Watch movies with your friends, then talk about those movies, talk about news, go to art galleries and interpret art. (art is especially good, pointing to the anvil "what’s that called?.. anyhow, I think the anvil here is used to express…)

Finally, read about stuff that interests you. Read a lot of it. Develop a hobby in reading Chinese. I read a survey of people who’d reached the upper ends of the language scale, and all of them said they took reading very seriously. You won’t learn how to discuss economics by watching It Started With a Kiss.

19

The “and listen to” part is the most important.

Many Taiwanese will unconsciously correct you – especially in terms of wrong tones – by repeating the correct pronunciation of what you just said. It took me literally 10 years before I was able to pick up on the fact that this was happening and use it. Before that I just was not sensitive enough to what was going on (probably because my grasp of the words was not firm enough and there were no brain resources left over to think about it) and assumed they were simply repeating to show comprehension or as some kind of linguistic or conversational device.

You can have lots of conversations, but if you fail to listen to the other person (assuming s/he is speaking correctly) and just state your side using any sort of grammar or words you can, you won’t progress. It’s a hackneyed phrase, but in language learning it’s really true that humans have two ears and only one mouth for a reason. (Of course, the ideal language learning human would come equipped with some sort of digital recording device as well.) :smiley:

20

I carry mine in my pocket, cued up and ready to record all the time.

Seriously, never leave home without it.

Mostly I just get resident expert to translate things that I realize I would like to be able to say as we wander around from one context to another. She gives it once in Chinese, I do English as fast as I can and she gives it again in Chinese, slow with exagerated tones, and then fast again. Later when I’m out for a hike on my own I listen and try to say the last one along with her.

Other times the tape is something I recorded myself, could be anything, as long as I want to learn it, a tone, a word, a grammar pattern whatever. I’ve got about forty hours of these tapes and every one is getting better so I’m going back and taping over the old ones.