I think you are misinformed. There have been no communications about the women’s forum between Alien and I, either written or oral, for months. I highly doubt Gus pressured her into letting gay men come into the women’s forum either.
I have had no input on whether “others” were admitted to Women’s forum, as I said above. So, no, “the women” didn’t decide; apparently “some of the women” did. [/quote]
Oh, you were hoping. Real pretty, Maoman. What have you done to help anyone make this happen, other than come up to a table of Spanish speakers at the last Happy Hour and say how you thought the forum should be cut? I have actually discussed promotional strategies with Gus, who was kind enough to respond supportively. I guess I’m just not SOMEONE enough. Do whatever you want. You will anyway. At this point, to be honest, I don’t have enough confidence that doing X will guarantee Y at Forumosa to put the time and effort into a promotion of that forum, especially knowing that you, a person who admits he had no links with that community, feel it would probably be of no value. Let’s go ahead and yank it and save ourselves a year of haggling, OK?
[quote=“Maoman”]
BTW, the woman’s forum IS hidden (although there are links), donations are gladly accepted, but they do not buy agenda on forumosa, I didn’t bring up the issue of private forums, and I don’t even understand your baked bread metaphor, if that’s what it was.[/quote]
In Taiwan, the most common state of affairs while shopping is, on day 1 you find a product you really, really like. You buy it and take it home. You enjoy it. It benefits your life. Then, on day 12, you go back to the same place to get more, but the store has decided to stop carrying that product. It is very annoying to see Forumosa going this route: providing a good and useful resource than yanking it out from under us.
I was not implying that donations buy resources, merely that I see no harm and considerable good in the women’s forum (albeit as a purely women’s forum, no men) so that the only possible problem I could see would be cost. No one is implying that anyone “buys agenda” here. Unless maybe when you took over the site from Gus…? 
‘cause the agenda sure as shootin’ has changed since then.
Your site, your call. But please don’t hide behind this “it’s a public forum” thing. It’s a Maoman forum, full stop.
Just firstly to say, that this was me (your discretion appreciated 
), and I agree that this one could theoretically have gone in the health forum, in a different form. The only reason it went into the women’s forum was because I was upset about it and wanted to rant with the ‘assurance’ of a supportive environment, and without the (possible) snarky/unhelpful comments that are so often found on the public forums. I really didn’t want to have to deal with unsolicited quips at that time.[/quote]
I’ve been looking through the health forum, and I find that there are very few “unsolicited quips” or “snarky comments” in reply to serious questions. Give the health moderator (your fellow women’s forum member BraxtonHicks) a chance - and if you disagree with her moderating decisions, let her know. She’s the one with the power. 
One more point – I’ve just re-read this thread from the beginning, and I do not find one single poster who has said he or she does NOT support keeping the Women’s Forum. So what exactly is the problem?? The thread has been up for quite awhile. Surely anyone who was rabidly against it should have had time to chime in by now??
I didn’t say it came from you. And I didn’t say anyone pressured her to let gay men in. She was pressured to increase membership of Women’s Only - with the implication, I think, that the forum wasn’t ‘used’ enough and came up with the idea of letting in gay men - I thought I said that. But best I shut up and let her speak for herself
And I do think you still misunderstand my point re my post. It was an emotional post, and the subject matter was essentially not relevant. I wasn’t asking for advice, comments or discussion, although some was offered and I appreciated it. Also, some culture shock at the time (not to mention Forumosa-shock) was also involved. It’s a lot to make out of one post, I think.
IL, our problems lie not in communication, but in trust and credibility. You have twisted my words and intentions well past their original meaning. In the case of your recollection of events at the Happy Hour, we have totally different recollections. I didn’t say anything about cutting the Spanish forum any time in the near future. I did say that the forum had minimal traffic, and minimal promotion, and that I hoped that it could be promoted. As evidenced by your reply above, you doubt my sincerity - there’s nothing I can do about that, except to continue not cutting the Spanish forum. I’m sorry if I’ve done something to have offended you, but I won’t stop calling things as I see them. If you disagree with my opinions, that is your right. If you disagree with specific actions I have taken, that is also your right, but please be constructive - what decision was wrong, what offended you, what can be done to make things better?
When I first came on as the (content) administrator for Forumosa, Gus had just allowed a private woman’s forum - something I disagreed with. There has been no talk on my part of removing the forum. You’ll notice the topic was started by the same person who created the women’s forum. Just for the record, I think the women’s forum should stay, not because I agree with it, but because I promised Alien that she could try to make a go of it. I think 6 months is too early to judge. How long is long enough? I don’t know. 
I think that this is something that we can talk about as a community, which is what I believe that Gus had intended when he started this thread.
You’ll notice that only one forum has been removed since I got on board - the private Tolkien discussion board, and it was removed because it was dead in the water. Three new ones have come into being, Taiwan Politics, International Politics, and the Business Forum. These all came out of a real need, not a hope. Seems the first thing we do when one of these new forums is created is move pages of threads over to their new, more appropriate locations. I can’t profess that I’ve got all the answers, but I DO care about this website, and I spend a lot of time and money shaping it as best I can. There will always be dissenters and naysayers, but there’s not much I can do about that.
Considerable cuts to the above for space reasons, but…am I missing something? Sure sounds from the above that you don’t support keeping the Women’s Forum. If I’m wrong, please let me know, but that’s what I read from the above. And the above was posted in response to about 10 posters who unanimously said keep the Women’s Forum.
Am I confused, or what? :s
Considerable cuts to the above for space reasons, but…am I missing something? Sure sounds from the above that you don’t support keeping the Women’s Forum. If I’m wrong, please let me know, but that’s what I read from the above. And the above was posted in response to about 10 posters who unanimously said keep the Women’s Forum. Am I confused, or what? :s[/quote]
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. 
If I had had my druthers, there would have been no women’s forum. I would not have created it. It would not be the divisive issue it has become. That being said, I also promised Alien that I wouldn’t touch it. I will honour that promise. I can’t say that the situation will stay that way forever, but trust me there will be tumbleweeds blowing past screen doors swinging in the wind in the women’s forum before I do anything about it - and that’s not in the near future.
In summary, there are two points I’d like to make:
-
I disagree with the purpose of the woman’s forum, but I’m not planning on axing it anytime soon. You will have lots of warning before we ever get to that stage.
-
No new private forums are going to be created in the near future. Not a business one, not a MLM one, not a gay one, not a post-operational transvestites living in Taiwan one. I know that isn’t what everyone wants to hear, but there it is.
This website has grown phenomenally in the last year (despite my foolish nature ). I appreciate and listen to ALL the feedback this website gets. I agree with some of it, I disagree with some of it, and I reserve the right to change my opinions when new developments warrant. I’ve got a (pretty light) hand on the rudder, but it’s you guys that are the wind in Forumosa’s sails, or the wind beneath its wings or something like that. 
Gus and I never take that for granted. 
[quote=“Maoman”]
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. 
If I had had my druthers, there would have been no women’s forum. I would not have created it. It would not be the divisive issue it has become. [/quote]
How is it a divisive issue? I have read only opinions in support of the Women’s Forum, as it is, private and for women, in this thread. Surely this is an open thread to which anyone with a strong opinion on the subject may contribute? The only person who seems to have chimed in with anything against the women’s forum on this thread is…well…you. 
Who precisely are the others who are against the Women’s Forum’s continued existence and why? To whom is it a divisive issue? Inquiring minds (which are bored with schoolwork) want to know!
I have never voiced it, but I disagree with having a PRIVATE forum… for women or for lgbt. Nobody here is so special that they need their own PRIVATE splinter forum. I’m not married,or ‘cozy’,but I am a man. I went to biology class and have a vague idea about the fundamemtal differences between men and women, but i fail to see a good reason why you are more needing of a private womens or gay forum than I.
This site is for everybody, why not go and start your own website devoted to your cause?
There will be people demanding an ABC forum next…oh they have one-Oriented…or there will be demand for a ‘taiwanese english leech’ private forum where they can discuss the best way to suck us dry.
Ironlady has made the comment that people have had enough chance to comment on this issues since it’s initial posting yesterday. Though, I am all for the Women’s forum, with or without us gay men, I’m not sure her assertion is true.
Personally, up until a month or so ago, when someone told me that something had been moved to the flounder forum, I rarely, if ever, scrolled down the page this far to find these forums. In fact, for a long time, I didn’t really even know they were here.
So, there are many posters (especially those without direct knowledge of this issue) who may not even think about checking out the Feedback & Announcements forum for this or any other topic. Maybe, if you all want to get a true representative view, you should relocate this thread to the Open forum.
Just my NT$2.
[quote]
Married men and men in long-term relationships are usually pretty familiar with their wives’ gender-specific issues, whether it’s menstrual cycles, biological clocks, kids, or health concerns. In a sense, they’re not really gender specific, since they affect my life/relationships with women. Why cut men out of the loop?[/quote]
Yes, they’re familiar with their wives’ gender specific issues. There definitely are topics that I might discuss with my husband but wouldn’t want to discuss with the 30+ male forumosans that I’ve met over the years. As I’ve said before, for me, the private women forum is a place to discuss topics I have no other place to discuss. Forumosa is by far the most interesting forum I’ve come across because I can basically discuss everything here, no matter if it’s Taiwan-related, job-related, social relationship-related, cat-related… the private women forum nicely rounds this up.
As long as it is a private forum where admission happens personally and the moderator is okay with it, I don’t see why not.
I honestly can’t imagine a guy posting “pregnant mum looking for playground partners” just to get access to the private forum. All the women who have access to the private forum either stated their gender in non-related posts, mostly before even learning that a private women forum existed. Or are personal acquaintances of somebody else in the private women forum.
Maybe I’m judging too much from my own perspective here. But I wouldn’t think that there is much need for a private business forum, private buxiban forum, private baby forum, private MBA forum. Because those topics are discussed openly anyway. I have a business and don’t mind posting related questions openly in the new business forum. If there was a public baby forum, I’d probably post there too (in about 2 years time :s). The buxiban owners don’t seem to have many difficulties openly posting their pet peeves, either.
I guess the big topic here is that people have suggested above mentioned private forums because they were looking for a space where all related threads could be found easily instead of taking the pain to look for a baby-ear-infection thread in the health forum, best bilingual schools for kids-thread in the teaching English forum and the “how do i prevent military service for my boy?” in the legal forums. Maybe you should go back and ask those people who suggested private forums on those topics if they feel that those forums have to be private or if they were just looking for a “forum”. Look at the discussion on the gay forum right now. Obviously, the guys wouldn’t mind a public forum, as long as they get their own space. I suspect the same applies to the mums, MBA students, buxiban owners etc. I still think a private women forum is a different matter.
Iris
Ironlady, I usually enjoy reading your posts - not least because you are one of the more mentally stable contributors here. But I’ve been quite amazed by what I’ve seen from you in this thread.
A while back I proposed that the upcoming business forum be private, on the grounds that I think there needs to be a place where serious people can discuss financially sensitive matters without everyone in the universe being able to listen. I still hold that view, but I now agree with Maoman that Forumosa is not that place.
Anyone wanting to have a private meeting place, in the real world or online, is free to go ahead and organise one. A simple option is to create a members-only newsgroup. A niche website is a trickier proposition, but still not impossible.
Once you cater for one special interest group, you have to start catering for others. Part of the attraction of forumosa for me has been the fact that we’re all in it together and we all interact with people we may not normally meet, or find ourselves discussing topics we wouldn’t ordinarily think about. I for one have learned and grown as an individual because I have been exposed to ideas that were not previously part of my world picture. If forumosa becomes a collection of special interest groups then the value of the site is diminished.
That’s my view anyway, because I see the purpose of forumosa as being to promote a sense of community, shared experience, and understanding.
While I can see value in a women-only forum somewhere, just as there is value in a private business forum somewhere, I feel quite strongly that it should not be at Forumosa.
For the record, I communicated this to Maoman when we met to set up the (public) business forum. He told me face-to-face that he had no intention of breaking the promise that had been made, or of reversing Gus’ decision, and that the forum stayed. I guess that makes me the only person advocating its closure. Lucky for you that Maoman’s in the driving seat, eh?
Finally, if the ‘women only’ forum is now open to men who claim to be gay then I view that as a highly inappropriate development.
I see maoman has humbled a bit by admitting his foolishness.
Southpaw has a good reason that people will demand for new private forums ad infinitum…
I say, it’s a good business since you have demand for it…
To Gus and Maoman, start charging for private forums 
more cash to your donation box.
ax
[quote=“stragbasher”]
Finally, if the ‘women only’ forum is now open to men who claim to be gay then I view that as a highly inappropriate development.[/quote]
It IS NOT open to gay posters. That was a suggestion Alien made and some of us agreed with. But as Gus and Maoman disagreed, it is not the case that the women only forum is open to gay posters.
Iris
[quote=“Southpaw”]I have never voiced it, but I disagree with having a PRIVATE forum… for women or for lgbt. Nobody here is so special that they need their own PRIVATE splinter forum. I’m not married,or ‘cozy’,but I am a man. I went to biology class and have a vague idea about the fundamemtal differences between men and women, but i fail to see a good reason why you are more needing of a private womens or gay forum than I.
This site is for everybody, why not go and start your own website devoted to your cause?
There will be people demanding an ABC forum next…oh they have one-Oriented…or there will be demand for a ‘Taiwanese English leech’ private forum where they can discuss the best way to suck us dry.[/quote]
This is a very good illustration of why a private women’s forum is needed. Men don’t see why we might want a private women’s forum. But I don’t know you, I don’t think your vague understanding of the biological differences between men and women will help me much with issues I want to discuss with expat women in Taiwan, and I don’t feel comfortable discussing certain issues in front of you, i.e., in a public forum. Unless you’d like to share my romp through menopause? 
Well I don’t particularly want to share it with YOU.
And there ARE many women’s issues that are specifically Taiwan-related; it’s not nearly as easy to manage one’s body, one’s psyche, and one’s family/household responsibilities here as it is in the West, if you want to keep a vaguely Western-style life.
If the men are allowed to ask why, then I’d like to ask the men: why NOT?
Although in principle I am against private forums, seeing as the private women’s forum already exists (and doesn’t harm anyone) I say let it be. In fact, it might be a good thing for us blokes if all the shelias head over to that forum at a certain time of the month. 
I also enjoy reading the ‘women only’ forum and support it’s existance since I do understand the need for women to discuss certain issues more privately, without being interrupted by men.
But before anyone comes and says in that case I want a forum for this and that I would argue that the women’s forum is a seperation based on gender, not on sexual orientation, religion or else. Since most men openly discuss their gender related issues I wouldn’t see a need for a men’s only forum either. And as such I think we should leave it at that; any decision to create another ‘only’ forum should be at the discretion of the admin, considering demand, reasons and need. Same goes for specialized forums.
PS: Just kidding about me reading the ‘women only’ forum of course.
I honestly can’t imagine a guy posting “pregnant mum looking for playground partners” just to get access to the private forum. All the women who have access to the private forum either stated their gender in non-related posts, mostly before even learning that a private women forum existed. Or are personal acquaintances of somebody else in the private women forum.[/quote]
I think that was my point, hence the “winking” smiley. To repeat what I said above, I propose that anyone who says they are female be let in. If you suspect someone of not being female, you can turn them down. I feel strongly that the women’s forum has to be open to ALL of the women that visit forumosa, and not just the ones that have posted extensively or are personal acquaintances of the present members.
It IS NOT open to gay posters. That was a suggestion Alien made and some of us agreed with. But as Gus and Maoman disagreed, it is not the case that the women only forum is open to gay posters.Iris[/quote]
Not open to gay posters? That’s a little misleading. 24 hours ago, it WAS open to gay posters. It was not just a suggestion that Alien made, it was a decision that Alien made and acted upon.
[quote=“Maoman”]
I think that was my point, hence the “winking” smiley. To repeat what I said above, I propose that anyone who says they are female be let in. If you suspect someone of not being female, you can turn them down. I feel strongly that the women’s forum has to be open to ALL of the women that visit forumosa, and not just the ones that have posted extensively or are personal acquaintances of the present members.[/quote]
I haven’t said anything about “posting extensively”. Whenever I come across a new poster who obviously seems to be female, I PM them, possibly exchange some more PMs and tell them about the Private Women forum. Of course, it’s always up to Alien to turn down people she doesn’t trust to be female. I don’t know if it has ever happened. Of course we can’t just let in girls we’ve met ourselves.
It was open to 2 gay posters for what? 5 minutes? We couldn’t even post a “Welcome” before the decision was revised :s It still IS NOT open to gay posters.
Iris