Your kids: What will their language of eloquence be?

Taiwan Parenting
21

[color=blue]
I disagree, because the Chinese speaking parent should not be speaking poor English to the child.[/color]

If the balance is really weighted one way, yes, it will be difficult. But, if the English speaking parent makes a point of conversing only in English at home and out with the child, a good foundation in English will be obtained. [color=blue]It isn’t necessary for the non-English speaking parent to provide an incorrect model for the child to imitate.[/color]
[/quote]

Yes, makes huge sense. It also give the Chinese speaking parent a chance to help develop the childs Chinese language skills.

22

Its rare in one language.

I guess we never actually determined one language over the other, and certainly never consciously set out to achieve eloquence in either language.

We looked at our basic hope, i.e., fluency and proficiency in two languages, and then looked at our circumstances, i.e., physical environment and ability to pay for activities that would help to develop one or both of the languages… sending our boy to the US for summers with his grandparents has been expensive, but has been very helpful in maintaining a good solid base in English, even if at this point in time it is second to mandarin in terms of his proficiency.

The fact of the matter is, we live in Taiwan now, and Taiwan provides an excellent environment for learning Chinese. Meanwhile, it is possible to learn English, albeit at a slower rate of progress. But, when our circumstances change, his environment will change and he will have an opportunity to further develop his English from his current base of proficiency.

Circumstances and environment have “forced” us to take an approach that seeks to take maximum advantage of opportunities for acquisition of both languages. Obviously here in Taiwan, there are more opportunities for Chinese language acquisition and thus our boy’s Chinese is currently better than his English. Currently.

See my remarks above.

23

That’s the problem with discussion boards, isn’t it? You want one thing, and the darn things go off like they’ve got a will of their own. Like children. And children’s development of eloquence. I’m sure you don’t want to think about this now, but how can you predict the language in which your daughter will want to murmur sweet nothings?

I’m far from being able to comment on to what degree or in what language my 15-month-old daughter will be eloquent. Since she was born, I’ve always spoken English to her. When I’m home alone with her, I prattle away talking about the washing up I’m doing, or how we’ll call her great grandma later, or sing nonsense songs to her, or — and this is the main reason I wanted a child — read her Dr Suess’ “Fox in Socks.” The exception is when we meet people in the street and I want them to understand what I’m saying, too.

I’m concerned that some of your points are setting you up for a lot of heartache and/or conflict later:

[quote=“Maoman”]First, English is my language of eloquence, and I hope to be able to talk deeply with my children about things as they are growing up. [/quote] And your wife doesn’t (or is she a native English speaker too)?

[quote=“Maoman”]Second, English is one of Canada’s official languages, and my daughter will be Canadian. [/quote] Does this mean you will return to Canada when she is still fairly young, or do you intend to create a Canadian enclave surrounded by a sea of Taiwanese/Chinese language and culture? I recently met someone of US parentage who grew up in Taiwan. He attended a Catholic (secular, please!) school in Taipei, and now in his early 20s, and after college back “home”, he’s back home to get down the language of the country he grew up in. I find that pretty sad.

[quote=“Maoman”]Third, English is still the international language, and while fluency in it is a prerequisite for many jobs, eloquence in it is often necessary for even greater opportunities. [/quote] How much eloquence is there in international business, where the majority of participants are using English as a second language? (But granted, a little eloquence could give an edge.)

[quote=“Maoman”]Fourth, eloquence in Taiwan doesn’t seem to be as highly valued as smart-ass remarks, grand-standing, or “putting on a show” seem to be. [/quote] I’ve got a long way to go before I can talk about anything deeper in Mandarin than the puddle in my shower, so I can’t comment fairly here. I’m sure there’s eloquence out there; it’s just not likely to be found on TV (pop, whizz).

[quote=“Maoman”]Fifth, eloquence in women doesn’t seem to be highly-valued in Taiwan. In fact, many Taiwanese men seem to be intimidated by a woman who speaks about a topic with any degree of intelligence.[/quote] Isn’t eloquence supposed to be intimidating, whatever the sex of the speaker?

Eloquence aside, my fear is that without speaking English, my daughter will become alienated from me ahead of the normal time (when she’s a teenager). There are things I will do to encourage her English skills: speak to her myself, buy DVDs for kids (not didactic ones), give her time among my native-English-speaking friends, and give her time with my family. And there are things I will not do: send her to bushiban, and try to cut her off from Taiwanese/Chinese society.

Eloquence in English, if she achieves it, will depend largely on what happens after she develops fluency and how she develops as a person so that she has experiences and opinions to be eloquent about.

Our children is a very personal topic, so by nature some of my comments could be taken as personal criticism, which they are not. Maoman, I thank you for bringing up this topic and look forward to reading further contributions.

So, what’s the scoop on fees at TES?

24

I think that speaking as much as possible is key to acquisition of any language. We were told to speak frequently to our boy when he was an infant, even if he was nowhere near ready to respond… we were told to say everything we were doing… “Daddy is washing the dishes”… Mommy is feeding you"… children learn by imitating and by making a connection between the sound of words and the objects at which the words are directed and the acts that are described.

Talk to your children.

25

This now seems to be the minority view among those who study childhood langauge acquisition. It used to be thought that exposure to and acquisition of more than one language would be confusing for a small child and that it would lead to code switching or slow acquisition of both languages. Some people have a problem with their child mixing langauges, but this is generally something that sorts itself out in a couple of years if it happens at all. I don’t think waiting to expose them to a second language keeps them from code switching, and a likely result is that the second language won’t catch up with the one acquired earlier. There are no absolutes, though. It all depends on the quality and duration of exposure that they get.

Being a language teacher and student of applied linguistics, some friends have asked me how they can help their child achieve perfect bilingualism, or if that is not possible, how to make sure their kid is not just native in a chosen langauge, but as Maoman eloquently puts it, eloquent. I have no sure answer. The way children will respond to their environment is completely unpredictable. Each parent speaking their first language to their kids is good advice, but it doesn’t always result in children even achieving fluency in both languages, much less becoming eloquent in even one of them.

As far as having a goal of perfect bilingualism (“eloquence” in both languages IMO) is concerned, I am a pessimist. Perfect bilingualism requires formal and non-formal interaction in both languages. If you want this for your child, you’ll have to find a very well run bilingual school. How many C/E bilingual schools are there? How many are well run? Not many IMO. You’ll then have to find informal exposure to the language for them, and that must include interaction with kids their age, not just talking to mom or dad. Plenty of Chinese kids in N America fail to develop fluency in Chinese because they only use it with mom and dad; they rarely use it with their ethnic Chinese peers. If your child is going to a local school in Taiwan, then I doubt they will use English to talk to anybody other than the parent who speaks it as his or her first language.

I actually envy you folks still living in Taiwan. At least your kids will have the chance to achieve eloquence in one high language: Guoyu. My child will mostly be exposed to English and Cantonese. We don’t have the money to send him to an international school. The so-called English medium schools here are a joke; IMO, most kids who go through them end up perfect examples of subtractive bilingualism. That means they are sort of fluent in both languages, but far from performing like an educated native in either. That is my biggest fear for my boy. I’m also quite afraid of him going to a Chinese medium school where the langauge of instruction is Cantonese. If he does, he’s less likely to develop Chinese skills that would firmly plant him in the Chinese discourse community. My boy will not have access to a good formal education in English. The only way he’ll get a strong Chinese education is if he goes to a patriotic school where Putonghua is the medium of instruction. I’m actually leaning toward that. At least he’ll learn one langauge well. I’ll just have to do my best at undoing the brainwashing and working on English with him at the end of every day.

My philosophy is simple: I am not picky about which language my boy is strongest in just as long as he learns to think critically. It occurred to me before I got married that I should be prepared for my child to be stronger in his/her mother’s langauge than mine. That’s the chance you take when you hitch with a foreigner. Yes, a Putonghua education may be less likely to give him the critical thinking skills that a better education in the US would help him build, but I have no confidence in the local English medium schools here in HK. I’d rather my boy be fluent in English and eloquent in Chinese than shit in both. My belief is that if a bilingual child learns one language to the level of eloquence, then he will be able to develop similar skills in his other language if he decides to do that later. It saddens me when I meet HK people who are OK in English and Chinese, but will never know what true eloquence is for any language. If I had to choose between sort of native fluency in English and Cantonese or eloquence in Putonghua and sort of native fluency in English, then I’d choose the latter for my son. Living in HK, this is likely the choice we will have to make.

Careful there. It is the norm, not the exception for bilinguals to have unequal skills in their languages. Kids also go through phases when one of their languages, or at least their productive skills in it, seems to develop faster than the other. That is completely normal and there’s often very little that can be done about it other than trying to influence their environment so that the lagging language has more appeal to them.

This does happen in a few cases, but it is actually less common than one would think. I’m not well read in childhood language acquisition, but my belief is that kids in a two language household are more likely to develop both languages at a brisk pace if mom and dad at least understand each other’s languages. If mom and dad can understand what the other is saying, then they both can grasp the whole language context that their child is being exposed to and take up topics that the child was discussing with the other parent, yet take it up in the other language. I know lots of foreign dads here in HK who don’t speak or understand Cantonese. For the ones who are working with the wife to raise a bilingual child (w/ both of them speaking their first languages with the child), the non-Canto speaking dad’s chances for interacting with the child are greatly reduced because he just can’t follow the flow of what’s happening in that child’s mostly Cantonese world. I think parents who can understand Chinese will be able to be much more involved in their children’s lives, and thus be able to expose their children to more of their own language.

In response to Maoman’s question about how parents determine their childen’s language of eloquence (shall we call it LoE for the sake of brevity?), I’m afraid that my subjective answer is not one he wants to hear. If you want to be absolutely sure that your daughter’s LoE is English, then you’ll just have to move back to Canada. By doing so, you’ll likely relegate Chinese to a language she only speaks with mom and a language she can’t read or write well. If you stay in Taiwan, there is no way to be sure she will achieve eloquence in either Chinese or English, even if she goes to an international school. I’m not saying it’s impossible for English to be her LoE in Taiwan, but it seems to me that the chances of it happening are lower than what you’d be comfortable with if it just must be English.

This is a very interesting thread you’ve started, Maoman. Having just become a father, the same issues have been on my mind, too.

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That’s the problem with discussion boards, isn’t it? You want one thing, and the darn things go off like they’ve got a will of their own. Like children. And children’s development of eloquence. I’m sure you don’t want to think about this now, but how can you predict the language in which your daughter will want to murmur sweet nothings?[/quote]
I have no problem with people going off on tangents, but selfishly, I want to discuss my points too, dammit. :wink: And I might not be able to determine my daughter’s language of eloquence, but I can influence it.

And your wife doesn’t (or is she a native English speaker too)?[/quote]
I just asked my wife - she says she would be happy if our daughter were eloquent in Mandarin, if there were someone to be eloquent with. Her own family chatters at the dinner table, but there’s no substantial conversation. In our house, my wife and I sometimes speak deeply, but it’s hard because we are both amateurs in each other’s languages. We wish fluency on our daughter in both languages of course, but if we had to be able to choose between her ability to write a first-rate story in the New York Times or the China Times, well, we’d be leaning towards the New York Times. Better to be a William Safire than a Li Ao.

Of course she will be spending lots of time in both countries for many years to come, but to be perfectly honest, I’d rather have her feel at home in an enclave of westerners than not. I mentioned TES because they seem to be doing a good job of turning out well-rounded, well-adjusted kids with a good knowledge of self and their surroundings and native speaker fluency in English, French and German. (TES consists of the British School, the German School and the French School - all three share the same campus). As far as being immersed in local culture, I’d like her to be in the (local) world, but not of the (local) world, to paraphrase a line from my Sunday School days. I see local culture as having less to offer than western culture. That might be a provocative statement, but there you have it.

I wouldn’t be using the business world as an example of eloquence in English. Who stole my cheese? Ugh!

Or in the newspapers, or on the radio. Maybe in a few classrooms? Classrooms where test scores aren’t the be-all and end-all in academic progress?

Really? When I aspire to eloquence it’s not to intimidate people. Wikipedia says this: [i]Eloquence (from Latin eloquentia) is fluent, forcible, elegant or persuasive speaking in public. It is primarily the power of expressing strong emotions in striking and appropriate language, thereby producing conviction or persuasion. The term is also used for writing in a fluent style.

Some people say that eloquence is a talent and a gift of nature. Others are of the opinion that it could be acquired by exercise and study. Most people would agree that it is impossible for eloquent persons to affect their hearers in any degree without being affected by it themselves.

“True eloquence,” Oliver Goldsmith says, “Does not consist … in saying great things in a sublime style, but in a simple style; for there is, properly speaking, no such thing as a sublime style, the sublimity lies only in the things; and when they are not so, the language may be turgid, affected, metaphorical, but not affecting.” (Of Eloquence, 1759)[/i]

I’m with you here.

Yes! I completely agree. This is getting to the heart of the matter. I’d like to explore this further.

My pleasure. I think it’s an important topic. TES fees are slightly less than TAS. I have the figures somewhere. Let me look around for them.

27

I remember Bassman saying he had a tough old time getting his son to speak English in Taiwan.
I bet his Chinese is falling away as we speak.

Eloquence will be based on many factors, one of which may involve which parent your child favours most!

28

I’m not a parent, but I dream of raising a bilingual child and wrote a research study thesis on psycholinguistics in terms of how well one develops signature phonemes in a foreign language, I wish to put in my own two centavos…

Language is best learned with early exposure, the earlier the better. If you wish your child to develop fluency, I highly recommend each parent using their native language to communicate with the child and not their spouse’s language. I believe strongly in families communicating in their lingua franca rather than giving their children a less-than-perfect model of another language. As I have said time and time again, a photocopy of a photocopy does not compare to having the original. If you are going to move to another country in order to give your child an equal opportunity to learn both languages, I would suggest you move to the second country before the child is 12 years old. Fourteen years old at the latest, but any later and you’re not really doing your child any favors. Research (and the subjects who I used in my own research) proved that the only thing that guarantees native-like fluency and pronunciation across the board is starting the language from before the onset of puberty, before the language center of the brain fossilizes, so that leads me to believe that the only way to achieve a high level of fluency and eloquence is to also expose the child to that environment by this time.

As far as eloquence goes, language exposure does a play a part, but also interest, use (simply talking to mom or dad doesn’t make one eloquent in a certain language…there has to be meaningful experiences and uses of the language as well), connotation, and intelligence play just as important of a role. Besides, look at all the uneloquent people there are out there. Not to say little Maobaby will be among them, but many people don’t even really establish real eloquence in their own native language.

Okay, to recap, here are the two points I want you to walk away with:

  1. Speak only your native languages to your daughter. Don’t give her a bad mimeograph of an accent or use by speaking your spouse’s language instead of your own. And give it lots of positive connotations for her, like using it to read her bedtime stories, to sing silly songs with her, to soothe her when she’s hurt or scared or sad, etc. The more positive experiences she has in English the stronger of a bond she will feel with using the language. The corollary would be the number of people who have bad language instructors and never wish to keep up with speaking that language.

and

  1. If you are going to raise her to use English, you will be better off moving her to a place where she will get the maximum exposure to that language as soon as possible, but especially before the onset of puberty (I know, talking about puberty and she hasn’t even been born yet…)

And concede that there’s the very real possibility that while being extremely gifted in being bilingual, she may never master either language. Again, it depends on her. You can help make it easier for her, but you can’t guarantee it will. Only she can.

29

Same here; I’m not a parent yet, but I was raised by two multi-lingual parents whose own native tongues differ, and I grew up in three countries, speaking two languages. My parents raised me speaking English only, at first, and then when I was four and my brother was born, we moved to Spain, where they switched to mixed Spanish and English. My brother got confused, and began mixing the two, and they ended the experiment, and didn’t teach us Spanish again until we moved to Mexico when I was 11. Even then, my dad (Mexican) didn’t speak to us exclusively in Spanish.

The result is that my Spanish never achieved native proficiency (eloquence), and although I’m quite fluent in it, I’ve always regretted the fact that my dad didn’t speak Spanish to me from birth. In fact, I also regret that he didn’t speak Italian to me on odd days, and my mom didn’t speak French and German to me on Tuesdays and Fridays. :stuck_out_tongue:

If I do have kids, they’ll definitely grow up knowing how to speak two languages with eloquence, along with a smattering of six or seven more. No two ways about it. :smiley:

30

I’m trying to figure out if the kids you do have one day will be lucky or not to have their bedtime stories limited to the outrageously well annotated dictionaries you keep.

"No, the use of “radical” is just plain wrong here little Dragonbones . . . " :laughing:

HG

31

There is lots of info re this subject… here is one source:

[quote]Theories have been developed to investigate the optimal age to undertake the study of a second language. Research has shown that the Brain Plasticity Theory (Baker, 1993; Chugani, 1996; Nash, 1997), the Biological Predisposition Theory (Lemke, 1990; Genesee, 1996), the Imprinting Theory (Asher & Garcia, 1984; Celestino, 1993; Hart, 1983) and the Native Language Magnet Theory (Kuhl, 1994) commonly share the theme that the younger the individual is when he/she is exposed to a new language, the greater the probability of acquiring native pronunciation as well as proficiency in that language. Lending further support to this theory, Begley (1996) refers to the brain as a jumble of neurons that are waiting to be woven into the intricate tapestry of the mind. She further describes the neurons of the newborn’s mind as unprogrammed circuits of almost infinite potential, comparable to the pentium chips found in a computer before the factory has preloaded the software. Begley reports that the circuits in the auditory cortex of the brain are wired by the age of 1 year, concluding further that the learning window for total language learning is from birth to 10 years of age. Begley warns that the critical periods for language learning close with each child’s passing birthday.

More recent research has concluded that the window for acquiring syntax may close as early as age 5 or 6, while the window allowing for the addition of new words may never close (Nash, 1997). However, Nash states that the ability to learn a second language undergoes a steady and inexorable decline after the age of 6. Curtiss, UCLA Professor of Linguistics, states that after this critical period, the brain becomes slowly less plastic, so that by the time the child reaches adolescence the brain cannot normally develop any new cognitive system, including language (“Language Learning and the Developing Brain”, 1996). Others have documented studies that support early language acquisition and believes that there clearly appears to be a “window of opportunity” when the brain is particularly efficient in learning (Chugani, 1996). Information released from Dr. Phelps of the Department of Molecular and Medical Pharmacology of the UCLA School of Medicine states that the learning experiences of a child determine which connections in the brain become developed and which will no longer function (“Language Learning and the Developing Brain”, 1996). Phelps also documented studies that have shown that the brain of a two-year-old has twice as many synapses or connections as an adult’s brain. Consequently, the failure to learn a skill during this sensitive period holds important significance because the young brain must use these connections or they will be lost. Since the fixing of speech habits occurs at about the age of 10, the consequent age barrier in language acquisition is directly linked to psychological as well as neurophysiological factors (Clyne, 1983; Krashen, 1976). [/quote]

And this is interesting, too:

[quote]Learning a second language at a young age is cognitively as easy as learning a first language.

A child’s brain processes multiple languages in parallel paths, building a second language system alongside the first.

A young learner can access a second language separately, without having to translate, or go through the native language as a path.

An older learner (after puberty) stores new languages in a separate area of the brain, requiring translation and explicit grammar training to learn.

The diminishing plasticity of the brain makes early learning optimal.[/quote]

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I’m trying to figure out if the kids you do have one day will be lucky or not to have their bedtime stories limited to the outrageously well annotated dictionaries you keep.

"No, the use of “radical” is just plain wrong here little Dragonbones . . . " :laughing:

HG[/quote]

:bravo: Oh, man, I like you! :bravo:

33

I’m trying to figure out if the kids you do have one day will be lucky or not to have their bedtime stories limited to the outrageously well annotated dictionaries you keep.

"No, the use of “radical” is just plain wrong here [color=red]little Dragonbones [/color]. . . " :laughing:

HG[/quote]

:bravo: Oh, man, I like you! :bravo:[/quote]

Wouldn’t they call a child ‘Dragonboy’ or ‘Dragongirl’ or even the adorable ‘Xiao dragon.’ Whats dragon in Chinese anyway? Kou long? Or is that just ‘monster?’

All these questions and more must be answered before Maomans baby, XiaoMao, starts saying "Where did my I-Pod chu na, eh?’

34

:laughing:

Although personally I think “Maomädchen” has a certain ring to it, especially considering Maoman’s teutonic background…

35

:laughing: Definitely not! I shall read them Cervantes, Journey to the West, and Homer!

BTW, my calligraphy teacher’s boy could identify quite a few oracle bone, bronze, seal script and clerical script graphs by the age of five. :sunglasses:

long2 is dragon; kong3long2 is dinosaur. :stuck_out_tongue:

Actually my Chinese surname is 蘇 Su1. For the next generation, the kids are supposed to have the character 達 da2 in the 2nd position, so if it’s a boy, I think we’ll name him 蘇達丙 su1da2bing3. If it’s a girl, maybe 蘇達芬 su1da2fen1.

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Presumably that’s only the case if you’ve actually managed to reach Suzhou.

HG

37

That’s the problem with discussion boards, isn’t it? You want one thing, and the darn things go off like they’ve got a will of their own. Like children. And children’s development of eloquence. I’m sure you don’t want to think about this now, but how can you predict the language in which your daughter will want to murmur sweet nothings?[/quote]
I have no problem with people going off on tangents, but selfishly, I want to discuss my points too, dammit. :wink: And I might not be able to determine my daughter’s language of eloquence, but I can influence it.[/quote]

Dude, in the early years get the missus out working and then you stay at home full time as a househusband/nanny, or send her back to Canada to live with the folks, this is about the only way you can be sure to determine at age 3 it is English. :smiling_imp:

What is your timescale for eloquence ? or in your mind when does one actually acheive it ? Can a young child have eloquence by being able to express something that happened to them during their day, while at the same time not being so elequent in the language that they can describing other topics that they are less familier with.

38

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

39

I have “getting fired” fantasies that allow this to happen. I could stand the economic loss, but I don’t quite have the gall to make it happen of my own free will.

40

I just dropped in on Mr He and mentioned that he should check this thread. He said he only talks to his children in Danish now and then as I was pulling out he was walking inside saying something to younger daughter in Chinese. :laughing:

Still no f%$*ng eloquence, sorry.