Talking about fluency rather than eloquence, I have a question for those with older children in a situation similar to mine. My children are in a household where I, the native-English-speaking mother, am responsible for most of the childcare. Grandma and Grandpa are also home fulltime, and speak Mandarin to the children, mixed with non-native-speaker English. Taiwanese is also spoken but right now its not spoken directly to the children. Grandma was raised by her Japanese mother so only knows Japanese-language childrenâs songs, so children do hear some Japanese, too. Father speaks Mandarin and English to the children.
I was really pushing for OPOL for a long time, but I have lost that battle, and actually my question is, if my children hear non-native-speaker English on a daily basis, but do spend a lot of time with me one-on-one with direct conversation, reading books etc, as well as spending time with other native-English speakers, will their English be so âcontaminatedâ that it is worth upsetting the family by insisting they donât speak English to the children? Also, I am wondering whether it is actually beneficial to have family members use English comfortably around the children, so they feel it is natural to converse in either/any of the languages their family members speak? Is it so bad that they all sing English songs together, even if the pronunciation isnât so good? Will my children inevitably pick up the grammar errors made by family members, or will constant modeling of correct structures by me be enough to counteract this?
I have to speak Mandarin in the house, as Grandma doesnât really speak English, my son doesnât speak Mandarin to me and I avoid speaking to him in Mandarin, and I imagine that being in the Mandarin-speaking environment, the children wonât pick up my bad habits in this language, but how about English, where I am the only native speaker in the house?
I do not think its worth the potential hassle to insist that your in-laws speak only Mandarin, or Taiwanese, or Japanes, but NOT English.
I think so long as you speak to your child in English, your child will be âwiredâ with the correct sounds and grammar.
Ever listen to a deaf person speak any language? Their speaking sounds distorted⌠thatâs because they have not heard the sounds of the spoken language correctly. They are imitating what they have heard. They have NEVER heard the sound of any language correctly.
I favor OPOL to the extent that it is possible. But, while your child may be hearing less than correct English sometimes, he/she is also hearing correct English from you. He/she can make the corrections later when he/she understands what is and what isnât correct.
My husband also tends to speak to the children in English no matter how much I encourage him towards OPOL. Storytime or with ChaoHu he speaks Chinese but usually it is broken Enlish. However, my son has never spoken to me with his fathersâ accent or gramatical errors but he does sometimes speak Chinese with a foreigner accent. Iâm sure that will improve when school starts though.
No, because as I tried to say a few pages back, kids acquiring language are very good at filtering out bad input. Itâs far more likely that your kid will start correcting the English grammar of the Taiwanese rellies.
It is odd that they insist on speaking English to him. People often go up to our sons and say âso cute, what eez your nemâ and the younger boy has no idea what theyâre saying. Whatâs behind this, I wonder? Theyâre just showing off in some inscrutable way, right?
I think people just assume your childâs primary language is English. My son started Saturday Chinese school yesterday and he cried when I left the classroom. I peeked inside the classroom and saw that the teacher was trying to comfort him in English, obviously assuming my sonâs primary language is English. Of course, even with the little English he understands, he wonât be able to understand her very very heavy accent. Oh wellâŚ
I think people just assume your childâs primary language is English. My son started Saturday Chinese school yesterday and he cried when I left the classroom. I peeked inside the classroom and saw that the teacher was trying to comfort him in English, obviously assuming my sonâs primary language is English. Of course, even with the little English he understands, he wonât be able to understand her very very heavy accent. Oh wellâŚ[/quote]
Maybe, or maybe, as smithsgj has suggested, they are trying to show off. An English friend of mine is married to a HKer and they have a daughter. On numerous ocassions when theyâve stepped into the lift or sat down on an MTR train, a parent who is already there with their child will start speaking English. These people are complete strangers and do not talk to my friend of his daughter. Iâve seen it happen twice when I was with them. On both ocassions, English was definitely these peopleâs weaker language. I think the more likely reason for why wannabe bilingual parents or Chinese parents who want their kid to be bilingual (but are usually far from it) just feel like it is some kind of competition. Sadly for them, it is a competition that their child will always lose. Judging from the looks on some kids faces when mom or dad suddenly switches to English when a foreigner is present, they seem to get it pretty well that mom or dad is being a pretentious wanker.
Often, the family assumed my son didnât understand their Chinese, for example if he ignored their request to brush his teeth in Chinese, they assumed it was because he didnât understand, not because he was âbeing twoâ. Also, I will risk saying my sonâs English vocab and grammar is more advanced than the Chinese, as a result of all the reading and singing we do together, as well as modelling use of language through direct, one-on-one communication with him. (Eg. My son can use adjs big, huge, enormous, gigantic, large, but only âdaâ, not even âchao daâ at this stage.)
It also surprises me, even out in a family group, everyone including me speaking Chinese, strangers are impressed my son can speak Chinese. I took my son to Gymboree partly to get him used to being with Chinese-speaking kids, and the teachers spoke to me in Chinese, but often spoke to my son in English. Again, if other kids didnât respond, they used other tactics in Chinese, but with my son they switched languages.
Regarding eloquence, does anyone know examples of Taiwanese who are/were considered being eloquent? We were exposed to English-language examples when were young (as mentioend above, Martin Luther King is one example). What Chinese-language examples are given to children?
As for the OPâs question about the languge of eloquence, I really donât have expectations for children to be âeloquentâ in either , although I do hope they can express themselves well enough for native speakers to understand them, without the struggles I face say in Chinese. Iâd also like them to be able to appreciate quality speeches and written works, just as we may apppreciate great music but not actually be able to reproduce it ourselves.
Often, the family assumed my son didnât understand their Chinese, for example if he ignored their request to brush his teeth in Chinese, they assumed it was because he didnât understand, not because he was âbeing twoâ. Also, I will risk saying my sonâs English vocab and grammar is more advanced than the Chinese, as a result of all the reading and singing we do together, as well as modelling use of language through direct, one-on-one communication with him. (Eg. My son can use adjs big, huge, enormous, gigantic, large, but only âdaâ, not even âchao daâ at this stage.)[/quote]
Off topic, I think itâs great that the family will eg ask him to clean his teeth on their own initiative. How do you get on with other things that are important to a westerner, like bedtime routines and car/scooter safety?
Asiababybabyâs productive linguistic skills are more advanced in English than in Chinese, that much is clear. But all of us â and especially those in the acquisition process, like kids â can understand far more than they can say, so we wouldnât want to take his richer English vocab & usage as evidence that his Chinese comprehension is more limited than English. Not that you are doing that, only sort of.
Your reading, singing and one-to-one contact with abb is evidently doing him a lot of good! At the same time, hearing all that Mandarin in the background will develop his Chinese skills, even if he isnât spoken to directly. In some cultures, says every linguistics primer, people donât generally speak directly to children , and needless to say the kids still learn to speak!
Actually, I think Taiwan may have been an example of such a culture until relatively recently. I often see parents simply ignoring their kidsâ curious questions about the world, or just snapping at them to be quiet; itâs unusual still to see a parent really engaging with their child (although you do get it in museums sometimes). I think this could explain why grandparents not sharing a language with their grandchildren is seen as unremarkable. Relatives using broken bits of foreign language, people showing off in the MRT or MTR, partners not really interested in contributing to a family policy on nurturing bilingualism, and confining their interactions with the kids to âWas it fun? Did Mummy spend a lot of money?â⌠a lot of this is demystified if you accept that talking to your kid is not viewed as a necessary part of the formative process in this part of the world.
So, the ill-formed English wonât break abbâs grammatical model of the language. Every time he hears an utterance which he identifies as English, his brain will make certain hypotheses which will be tested later. Anything ungrammatical wonât fit the model, and will ultimately get rejected. Itâs kind of an opportunity lost, in that if the utterance had been in Chinese it might have made a contribution, but it sounds like abb often hears it in Chinese first anyway. I donât think it will do any harm, nor will it do any good (although he could end up rather unsure in what language to address the people involved).
This got me thinking. OK, the use of English is not going to help with their language learning, nor is it more likely to be understood, although the Gymboree staff may not know this. But for one thing, they hear you speaking English to abb and think oh thatâs what Iâm supposed to do really, sheâs just being polite in telling me to speak Chinese. And for another, well yes they have a range of âtacticsâ in their repertoire: tell the child; chase the child; pick the child up; repeat what was said; repeat it more loudly; rephrase it in a way that makes the child want to listen etc etc. If saying it another language is an option, and you know thereâs a fair to good chance (or certainty) that the child understands that language, why not give it a go?
Thatâs strangers. In the family, itâs a bit different, and it would be nice if the relatives would do as they were told!
I agree with this. Again, I have problems with âeloquenceâ as a realistic goal for parents to set their sights on, or train kids towards. My own hope is that my two will end up speaking both English and Mandarin in a way that is both fluent and highly articulate.[/quote]
I hope he made it through the class OK. Itâs always a difficult situation, for kids and parents: our younger boy is just starting nursery two days a week (although his baomuâs place is like a mini-nursery anyway). This morning he just didnât want to let go of my hand, so I had to pretend to be a plane for a while, and join them in their ghastly song and dance routine of 1234567 wode hao pengyou zai nali before heâd let me go! Anyway good luck next Sat.
I know what you mean JT, though I donât suppose the kid interprets it in quite such a negative way as that! Are we always sure, though, what language the carer was speaking in the first place? There are times where thereâs evidence of a switch, but not always. It might be a full-on bilingual nurturer using a modified mL@H (where home includes no non-family present)
Yesterday went to the kejiaoguan place in shilin and was on the kiddy computers with older boy. Next computer, a couple, one Asian, one white, both non-native speakers of English, both talking to their kid in English, even singing English songs. Didnât hear them speaking to each other, didnât hear them use anything other than English⌠if they didnât share a native language, maybe they always speak English to each other. Should they be trying to implement a strict OPOL policy, even when all 3 are playing together? I think not.
Sorry, slightly off topicâŚI am very lucky with my family here, they are wonderful! We agree on many things like we should try to have kids in bed at a decent hour, kids shouldnât be stuffed with candy or drink coke like water, or take extra classes just because everyone else does. And children should brush their twice a day and eat at the dinner table and⌠you probably get the picture As they are so caring and sensible, I donât want to push the language issue unless there is evidence that it is going to negatively affect my childrenâs English. Thatâs why the research and othersâ experience is so interesting to me. I donât want destroy family harmony over something I may be misinformed about. Thanks for your information, I think I can relax a bit now.
I agree with this. Again, I have problems with âeloquenceâ as a realistic goal for parents to set their sights on, or train kids towards. My own hope is that my two will end up speaking both English and Mandarin in a way that is both fluent and highly articulate.[/quote]
Iâm sorry, I wasnât clear in my post. I donât expect to have eloquent children. That would be cool, but I certainly donât expect it. Iâm hoping to raise children that become eloquent adults. That doesnât magically happen at the age of 21. A lot of groundwork has to be laid. Books have to be read, information absorbed, discussions have to be had, arguments won and lost, passions iginited, etc.
I donât see any of this happening in Taiwan at any step of the educational process. Look at the Chinese classics - how many students here ever read them? Ever? I had an interesting discussion with Linda Arrigo at Cranky Laowaiâs house a few weeks ago about her reading a nigh-impossible-to-get original version of Sun Yat-senâs âThree Principles of the Peopleâ. You canât even get it in a library! What about Dream of the Red Chamber (ç´ ć¨ĺ¤˘), Journey to the West (輿éč¨), Romance of the Three Kingdoms (ä¸ĺćźçžŠ), or Water Margin (水杸ĺł)? Have you ever heard of a high school student who has read any of the Chinese classics in a non-comic book format? Me neither. Compare this to a well-rounded university prep education. Any kid entering university will have read Ernest Hemingway, Shakespeare, Ray Bradbury, written book reports by the dozens, and will have a basic knowledge of western classics. A kid entering into a liberal arts programme would very likely have an even greater knowledge. Kids here are so dumbed-down, itâs pathetic. Theyâll read a handful of comic books and consider themselves âreadersâ.
Do you want your kids to know what âOut, damned spot!â means? What about the trials of Job? To know what it means to be Machiavellian? To learn about bullfighting through Hemingway? To understand the concept of original sin, or know what the Platonic part of a Platonic relationship really means? How about a little history? The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand? Maybe thatâs a little too far from home. How about a close look at what caused Japanâs militarism in the first part of the 20th century? Still too far from home? Great. Letâs study 228. No? How about the White Terror? Oops, no indepth knowledge of domestic dirty laundry, please. How about the Cultural Revolution? Still, nothing. Hello Kitty! Aha! Now weâre on to something! Welcome to Taiwan.
If you want your kid to grow up with a solid grounding of Japanese kitsch-culture exports and commercialism, keep your kid in a Taiwanese school. If youâd like your kid to grow into an adult with whom you can someday have a conversation, you might want to rethink your educational strategy.
Maoman,
Are you sure nobody reads those classics? I can see three of the four you mention, here in our home study, the rather thick Chinese versions. We canât be the only family to have them?
[quote=âasiababyâ]Maoman,
Are you sure nobody reads those classics? I can see three of the four you mention, here in our home study, the rather thick Chinese versions. We canât be the only family to have them?[/quote]
Iâm sure some people do. I donât believe many people do. In most Taiwanese living rooms, the television takes pride of place, augmented by a few dusty bottles of XO. What Iâm saying is that no kid should escape a good high school education here or in the west without a good understanding of the classics of their respective cultures, and at least some understanding of the world beyond their borders. I donât see kids getting that in Taiwanâs public schools.
In most Western living rooms the TV takes pride of place too. And a âgoodâ Western education? Perhaps, but Iâd guess that only a tiny percentage of kids in the West these days are getting what I think you mean when you say a âgoodâ education. The vast majority wonât have read any of the books you mention, far less have written book reports on them, for example.
Problem is, is there even such a thing as a âgoodâ Taiwan education?
Really? Where I grew up TVs were for the rec room, aka the family room, aka the den. Living rooms were for company, and for conversation. Now that the kids in my family have all grown up, there is only one small ancient tv left, in my folksâ bedroom, and thatâs for the nightly news.
And yet you have. And so have most of my friends. âOut damned spotâ, the trials of Job and references to the Cultural Revolution arenât met with blank stares. How do we ensure that our kids get the same education (or better) that we got? Not in Taiwanâs public schools, thatâs for sure.
Really? Where I grew up TVs were for the rec room, aka the family room, aka the den. Living rooms were for company, and for conversation. Now that the kids in my family have all grown up, there is only one small ancient tv left, in my folksâ bedroom, and thatâs for the nightly news.
And yet you have. And so have most of my friends. âOut damned spotâ, the trials of Job and references to the Cultural Revolution arenât met with blank stares. How do we ensure that our kids get the same education (or better) that we got? Not in Taiwanâs public schools, thatâs for sure.[/quote]
We donât have 'rec rooms in the UK. We have the living room. And I guarantee the TV takes pride of place in it. Sure, the enlightened few wonât have one, but drive up ANY street in the UK at night and youâll see the same blue flickering light shining out almost every window.
And youâre off base by referring to MY education â that was nearly 40 years ago. Youâd do better asking your sister what your nephew is learning. I think you might be in for a shock, though.
Really? Where I grew up TVs were for the rec room, aka the family room, aka the den. Living rooms were for company, and for conversation. Now that the kids in my family have all grown up, there is only one small ancient tv left, in my folksâ bedroom, and thatâs for the nightly news.
And yet you have. And so have most of my friends. [color=red]âOut damned spotâ, the trials of Job and references to the Cultural Revolution arenât met with blank stares.[/color] How do we ensure that our kids get the same education (or better) that we got? Not in Taiwanâs public schools, thatâs for sure.[/quote]
Maoman,
âStandardâ knowledge does not exist. I canât do the crossword in the Taipei Times, and not cos I is thick. Youâd equally struggle with the crossword in The Guardian. What you accept as general knowledge is different to what I accept. And that is to do with your culture. If you want your kid to learn what you know, either teach it to them yourself, or re-patriate.
I bet if you tested your friends on the trials of Job, the Cultural Revolution, etc, theyâd have heard of them, but wouldnât know much more than that.
Taiwanese kids know loads of things. Just not the stuff you know.
I think you have lost sight of reality. Thats normal. You are becoming a parent!
TV is the mother and father in most households round here. Adults tend to buy their opinions, so newspapers are TV for adults.
Hope your vision of MaoWalton Hill comes to fruition. But I doubt unless you move back home you child wonât be raised to the educational and spiritual standards which you require. (Which I am suggesting are false standards.)
âStandardâ knowledge does not exist. I canât do the crossword in the Taipei Times, and not cos I is thick. Youâd equally struggle with the crossword in The Guardian. What you accept as general knowledge is different to what I accept. And that is to do with your culture. If you want your kid to learn what you know, either teach it to them yourself, or re-patriate.
I bet if you tested your friends on the trials of Job, the Cultural Revolution, etc, theyâd have heard of them, but wouldnât know much more than that.
Taiwanese kids know loads of things. Just not the stuff you know.
I think you have lost sight of reality. Thats normal. You are becoming a parent!
TV is the mother and father in most households round here. Adults tend to buy their opinions, so newspapers are TV for adults.
Hope your vision of MaoWalton Hill comes to fruition. But I doubt unless you move back home you child wonât be raised to the educational and spiritual standards which you require. (Which I am suggesting are false standards.)[/quote]
I agree that knowledge is not standard. But what I see as passing for âthe normâ here is beneath mine. I also donât see families here communicating the same way they do in the west. Real conversation. About real topics. Here I see an incredible isolation within families, and a lack of communication. Obviously there are exceptions, but I believe my generalizations are true. And I donât believe Taiwanese kids know loads of things. I teach students of the best elementary and junior high schools in Taipei, and their lack of knowledge of their immediate world is astounding. I do want my kids to learn what I know, and I will teach it to them myself. I donât believe repatriation is necessary. I think Taipei European School is one solution. Iâm wondering what others are out there?
I believe it too. I also believe its the same in the West. You sound like youâre either comparing with your own ânon-normalâ (for want of a better expression) childhood experience, or else youâre viewing Western family life through rose-coloured spectacles.
Iâm sure that will improve when school starts though.
As they are so caring and sensible, I donât want to push the language issue unless there is evidence that it is going to negatively affect my childrenâs English. Thatâs why the research and othersâ experience is so interesting to me. I donât want destroy family harmony over something I may be misinformed about. Thanks for your information, I think I can relax a bit now.