Zain Dean conviction--fatal hit & run case PART IV

Discussion Open Forum
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[quote=“Mick”][quote=“Ermintrude”][quote=“Mick”][quote=“Ermintrude”][quote=“Mick”][quote=“Ermintrude”]
I’m not interested in what people think: I already know that. [/quote]

Are you sure :slight_smile:

Please, don’t come back with generalities. That would be so disappointing.[/quote]

Yup. We aren’t unique. You ever get surprised?[/quote]

Speak for yourself.[/quote]

OK. You’re a real enigma?[/quote]

:slight_smile: Oh dear, we’ve got ourselves all twisted in knots haven’t we? Zain Dean is the enigma, remember? You just said so. But then you also said “I’m not interested in what people think: I already know that.” and “We aren’t unique.”

The choices we make define who we are, thats what makes us unique, some more so than others. Zain Dean wasn’t even able to pick up someone else’s passport and walk out the country without leaving enough evidence to ensure 2 people close to him got sent to prison. Hardly an enigma, not even a stretch of the imagination, a very bog standard garden variety of save my skin at any cost, without depth in either intelligence or concern for those around him.[/quote]

There is no content in your post, just opposition. You’d make a great teenaged boy.

Oh dear, we’ve got ourselves all twisted in knots haven’t we? - No.

The choices we make define who we are, thats what makes us unique, some more so than others. - Nope, they really don’t, unless you are very rigid or surrounded by rigid people.

Low intelligence is not a failing. If you accept the idea that we are all on some kind of IQ continuum, and you consider yourself intelligent, which your comment indicates that you do, the majority of people have low or middling intelligence. Concern for others: he was scared. Either he is or he believes he is and so accepted their help. His girlfriend and friend obviously believed him to be innocent. Or he’s as venal and dumb as most people and just took his chances?

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[quote=“Ermintrude”]
There is no content in your post, just opposition. You’d make a great teenaged boy. [/quote]

Must be the comments you make remind me of my sister when I was a kid and bring out the playful side of me that likes to tease. To be fair, that often ended with her calling me names too.

[quote=“Ermintrude”]
The choices we make define who we are, thats what makes us unique, some more so than others. - Nope, they really don’t, unless you are very rigid or surrounded by rigid people.[/quote]

Alrighty joking aside, in all sincerity I would really be interested if you expand your reasoning some. I could try to infer what you mean, but I doubt it would be close to what you really meant.

[quote=“Ermintrude”]
Low intelligence is not a failing. If you accept the idea that we are all on some kind of IQ continuum, and you consider yourself intelligent, which your comment indicates that you do, the majority of people have low or middling intelligence. Concern for others: he was scared. Either he is or he believes he is and so accepted their help. His girlfriend and friend obviously believed him to be innocent. Or he’s as venal and dumb as most people and just took his chances?[/quote]

I’ve made too many stupid mistakes to consider myself intelligent. Of course he was scared, who wouldn’t be. As well as being hounded by the local media. In a split second your life is changed, it’s every persons worst nightmare. These days with internet searches, just entering Zain Dean into google will bring up the kind of results no one would want to have follow them around for the rest of their lives. On top of that, if there were any evidence that could have been used to exonerate him, it’s most likely long gone.

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Great logic. I guess anyone who gets accused of something and yet doesn’t remember quite what happened should just face the music, pay up and do time. It would certainly make the court’s job easier. Not that it would make any difference in Taiwan where they seem to just do as they wish anyway. But still…

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First word in the UK press I’ve seen of this

edinburghnews.scotsman.com/n … -1-3324718

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Great logic. I guess anyone who gets accused of something and yet doesn’t remember quite what happened should just face the music, pay up and do time. It would certainly make the court’s job easier. Not that it would make any difference in Taiwan where they seem to just do as they wish anyway. But still…[/quote]
Epic Fail, 101.
Pardon me, but are you out to lunch?
Do you even recall making such a post?
Not that it matters if you did. As there is this thing we call “Time”. Perhaps it sounds ludicrous to those under the influence, but even the likes of I, have to punch a clock, now & again.
Even if I was wasted…
Damn, that sun is still setting and rising…

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[quote=“Tempo Gain”]First word in the UK press I’ve seen of this

edinburghnews.scotsman.com/n … -1-3324718[/quote]

Could someone remind me why Dean was convicted and yet not immediately imprisioned?
I’ve forgotten.

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At this point, if he believes himself to be innocent, he would have been far better serving the original sentence and then trying to get it quashed afterwards. Wouldn’t he?

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[quote=“Nuit”][quote=“Tempo Gain”]First word in the UK press I’ve seen of this

edinburghnews.scotsman.com/n … -1-3324718[/quote]

Could someone remind me why Dean was convicted and yet not immediately imprisioned?
I’ve forgotten.[/quote]

Because in Taiwan you are not convicted until after you have exhausted your appeals. After you have exhausted your appeals, the prosecutor’s office sets the date when incarceration begins. You are usually given a few weeks to get your affairs in order. Dean may have had an appeal to the Supreme Court, They would need to wait for that appeal to be filed or for the period to run before they can set a date.

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If I truly believed myself to be innocent, I wouldn’t want to serve any sentence: why would I accept being punished for doing no wrong?

One thing about this case that irks me is the fact that he appealed the case, but ended up having his sentence increased. I’ve never heard of such an appeals process.

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Maybe now would be the time for ZD to plead “insanity”? Not sure if he can get away with insanity ; shame there is no “selfish bastard” plea to mitigate his sentence. The thought of spending time in a Scottish prison is not appealing and in addition to the danger of picking up the soap in the Showers, it will be very cold.
Que sera, sera…
( I refer to his subsequent actions )

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[quote=“Chris”]If I truly believed myself to be innocent, I wouldn’t want to serve any sentence: why would I accept being punished for doing no wrong?

One thing about this case that irks me is the fact that he appealed the case, but ended up having his sentence increased. I’ve never heard of such an appeals process.[/quote]
I see your point Chris BUT it is an ideological stance to criticise a Law system that is Taiwanese. it may have serious flaws but we all have to abide by their decisions or , if unhappy with that, move .It may well bite us on the arse one day, but unlikely IF we follow the rules ( such as they are).
ZD is at the least guilty of trying to cover up evidence of the damage to his car after the fact, which is hardly helping to prove his innocence . :ponder:

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The appeal is not the same as in the US. It is actually a re-trial. The appeals court can increase the sentence. This is true in other civil law jurisdictions, and hybrid ones, such as…Scotland. scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2 … ray-v-hma/

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[quote=“Chris”]If I truly believed myself to be innocent, I wouldn’t want to serve any sentence: why would I accept being punished for doing no wrong?
…[/quote]

He’s not innocent, even if you believe the car was driven by the second shooter on the grassy knoll… er… second ktv valet. Adherents to the Dean is innocent religion always seem to pretend he’s been convicted only of causing the death. Truth is, though, his conviction includes other offences. For one, he was convicted of the crime of driving drunk. This is something he was caught on video doing, and he admits to the offence as well. The faithful don’t have a leg to stand on defending him from this crime, so they’d rather forget he did it at all. Also included were his piracy offences, for which he illegally fled Taiwan previously (and subsequently returned after changing his name, though we’re supposed to believe that was for only family reasons and not to evade the arrest warrants waiting for him here). So, he’s clearly not just guilty of killing someone while driving drunk, though that is probably the most disgusting of his crimes. He doesn’t believe he’s totally innocent, as he’s already said he’s not. The sentence he received would suit the other crimes he committed, even if you wanted to pretend he didn’t kill the newspaper delivery guy (and I’ve got some prime Florida swampland and a couple bridges to sell ya if you really believe that). Anyway you slice it, this guy’s a criminal. It’s time we all started accepting that reality. He’s a repeat offender who fled prosecution in the past. He came back here under an alias, committed drunken vehicular manslaughter, tried to pin it on others and fled using a passport he bought from another, leaving his friends to take the heat for him. What a guy!

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Things he is certainly legally guilty of and which he hasn’t made legal reparations for, in order:

  1. Busted for copyright fraud.
  2. Entering Taiwan on a fake passport.
  3. Driving drunk.
  4. Exiting Taiwan on a fake passport.

Are these correct? Are there any others?

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Edit: added some court docs that I previously missed adding)

I’m not sure who you refer to with this. I can see many people (including me) being appalled by the circumstances of the pre-trial phase, especially the media leaks and craze, plus questioning the police work and it’s interpretation by the court - based on what was made public so far.

However, I can hardly see anyone claiming that Zain is “innocent” or that he seemed to be a role model citizen. Thus I find it quite strange to see several people accuse forum posters to blindly defend Zain or believing religiously that he is innocent. The most “religious” I’ve seen recently was one poster attacking Taiwan’s justice system in a way that looked extremely biased, but that’s it pretty much.

What I find interesting about this case is that you get to hear the story of the other side’s viewpoint, not only press, police and court. Zain’s story might or might not be bullshit from start to end, but either way it gives an interesting insight into this case.

I was trying to understand more about this older case, but so far wasn’t very successfully. Since you seem to be more familiar with this case, can you please give some more insight into what kind of “piracy” this was? Using illegal Windows and/or Software copies, or manufacturing/distributing/selling illegal copies of software?

Here are the Chinese language court documents that I collected back then (plus a pretty useless Google translate translation):

taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … E2e/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … WFd/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … hac/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … znb/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … zlc/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … Fkg/latest
taiwan.piratenpad.de/ep/pad/vie … c3Z/latest

Please note that the direct links on the top of each page don’t seem to work any more, they used to take one directly to a “printing friendly” version of a document. I don’t know of any other way of linking directly, thus the copies of the text in the EtherPad.

[quote=“superking”]Things he is certainly legally guilty of and which he hasn’t made legal reparations for, in order:

  1. Busted for copyright fraud.
  2. Entering Taiwan on a fake passport.
  3. Driving drunk.
  4. Exiting Taiwan on a fake passport.

Are these correct? Are there any others?[/quote]

  1. Seducing innocent Taiwanese girls (he reportedly was quite a player)

SCNR

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[quote=“superking”]Things he is certainly legally guilty of and which he hasn’t made legal reparations for, in order:

  1. Busted for copyright fraud.
    […]
    Are these correct?[/quote]

The little that I gathered about this older case seems to indicate that there were civil and/or criminal charges, and for at least one of these he was tried, convicted and paid some fine.

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[quote]Epic Fail, 101.
Pardon me, but are you out to lunch?
Do you even recall making such a post?
Not that it matters if you did. As there is this thing we call “Time”. Perhaps it sounds ludicrous to those under the influence, but even the likes of I, have to punch a clock, now & again.
Even if I was wasted…
Damn, that sun is still setting and rising…[/quote]

My issue is with the courts in Taiwan. Zain Dean has the right to try to wriggle out of whatever he likes. However, it is in everyone’s interest for the courts to prosecute a fair and impartial case, devoid of corruption and incompetence. I don’t believe they have done this. There are things that Zain Dean has remarked on concerning corruption, the mis-handling of evidence and general incompetence which have striking similarities to the two court cases I was involved in (one concerning my business, another concerning some kind of assault), including evidence which had gone missing, evidence which was disallowed and deadlines for appeals which were not sent out until the day before (and then the envelope they came in was empty anyway - obviously an attempt to make me miss my deadline) In all honesty, I would trust Zain Dean if he told me the sky was pink rather than any judgement a court in Taiwan passed. Zain Dean may be an ugly slime-ball - I don’t know the guy, but the courts here are capable of far worse - they are rotten to the core and they are a dis-service to society.

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[quote=“olm”]Edit: added some court docs that I previously missed adding)

I’m not sure who you refer to with this. I can see many people (including me) being appalled by the circumstances of the pre-trial phase, especially the media leaks and craze, plus questioning the police work and it’s interpretation by the court - based on what was made public so far.[/quote]

I refer to those who keep harping on about how this guy is innocent, or heavily suggesting the same. You obviously haven’t read much of these threads if you’ve missed the people I’m referring to. What exactly are you appalled by in the “pre-trial stage,” which didn’t turn out to be an unfounded allegation made by the accused and his friends, and was later found to be untrue? Media? Oh, come off it. He brought a lot of that on himself, with his press conferences and promises of new videos and so forth. Also, how many people really know what this “pre-trial stage” was really like? Those making claims about it are either lying or buying into lies. We didn’t and still don’t have access to that information. Police work? The KTV driver had alibi, video evidence and witnesses. Dean had none, and was too drunk to remember, too drunk to notice accident, too drunk to notice severe damage to front end of his car, broken radiator (shall I go on). His claims of police corruption are little more than a distraction technique. Unfounded.

Non-sequitur.

Not claiming to be an expert in this case at all. My point was and is that Dean is not an innocent individual and that his conviction was not based on the accident alone. Fact is, there are other charges involved and he was found guilty of those as well, having admitted to the DUI (after video evidence made it impossible not to). This very site offers some info regarding the copyright charges, however: forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … &start=580

Sorry, but in the end, this is a guy who committed crimes in Taiwan and illegally fled. Then he re-entered under an alias and lived here until he drove drunk and most likely killed someone. Then he illegally fled again, this time leaving friends to take the heat. He has admitted to driving drunk, so the allegations that this is an innocent man stitched up by corrupt police and courts in the dystopian hellhole called Taiwan are just nonsense. I wonder why, if things are so bad, Dean spent a good part of his adult life living here? Why also do the people, who seemingly believe that arrest and imprisonment for crimes you didn’t commit are possibilities, continue to live here to this day (unless they don’t really believe what they are saying)?

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On the flip side, if TW had not gone after him, this dude will be living in Europe free and clear. Just have to not set foot back on the rock. Would’ve gotten away scott free . Not having to make any amends for his friend’s problems helping him out or his girlfriend’s. And his involvement in the death of the scoot rider.

Even if he wasn’t driving he was involved.

I think the odds are in favor of him being behind the wheels when it struck the scoot rider.

Edit: Being a LIbra and liking to be “fair” and “unbalanced” , I like to look at each action objectively.

California has a “three strikes” law which i don’t agree with.

Where a person who has been convicted of 2 crimes can go to jail for much of his remaining life on committing a third one. And the third one could be just petty theft. In fact all three can be petty theft.

I think the punishment should fit the crime. Individually. And a person’s character should not determine his guilt.

Evidence should prove guilt. Not a person’s job or character or prior convictions.

Dean’s not a clean slate kind of guy. And he is devious and unsavory. I’d not want to be his friend.

But whether or not he killed the scoot rider should be proven by EVIDENCE. Not by his character (unsavory as it may be) or his prior criminal acts.

EVIDENCE beyond doubt.

Barring that a conviction should not be made. Unsavory as THAT choice may be.

FAct is a bad person could be INNOCENT of a particular crime. And a good person could be GUILTY instead.

Evil lurks in all of us. Some of us practice it more then others. Some keep our inner demon under control.

tommys simple belief number xxxxxxx : guilt should be proven with evidence beyond reasonable doubt…way beyond…dependent on the possibly sentence.

a 4 year sentence, proof could be slightly less then a life sentence, for example But there has to be proof beyond reasonable doubt. In fact, I would prefer PROOF BEYOND ANY DOUBT.

Prior convictions, a persons job, etc should not be factors.

They may make a jury “lean towards” convicting but that is not fair. OJ simpson got off, but who honestly believes he didnt kill her?

But in the end there was not enough evidence and he got let off.

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This is an interesting point. Is it Scotland’s responsibility to know they are harbouring an international criminal, or is it Taiwan’s to know where he washes up?

What’s all this about him living in some luxury place in Edinburgh when he arrived back?

You have to wonder what portion on his life time he allocates to all this. In his mind, do the nights in jail in Scotland get ticked off the original sentence? It’s 6pm here in the UK. I am not going to bed in prison tonight. Dean is. What must he be thinking?