15% of fruit and vegetables contain excessive or illegal pesticides

Doesn’t seem very robust to me if they don’t allow aquaponics. :slight_smile: A bit surprised as Australia is probably the leading country for aquaponics worldwide. Just wish I could get some better insight on why the rules does not permit aquaponics to be considered organic.[/quote]

The “organic” label is supposed to certify the “traditional” way of farming. No added artificial chemicals, just soil and natural fertilizers. If you ask me, it’s one of those hipster things. Hidroponics and other efficient farming techniques should be used broadly to ensure efficiency. Traditional farming techniques are OK if you live off the grid and have enough land to grow your own food, but as we’re now, there is not enough farming soil in the planet to feed everyone. If we can’t change the ways we grow food, we’ll starve in a couple of decades.

You are right that we need to change the ways we grow our food. But although the trend is industrial large-scale monoculture farming, this does not seem like the solution.
Industrial farming means spending an extraordinary amount of energy (oil) in growing food and transporting it around. Oil-based industrial farming is temporary. Organic is infinite.

Hydroponics has received quite a lot of investment, and apparently the 711 salads are all from hydroponic farms here in Taiwan. But for me it’s a dead end. I see it as inferior to aquaponics as you still need to add chemicals, which again rely on oil (which is why several large chemical companies are promoting it). There is a good reason why people working in commercial hydroponic farms wear hazmat suits. Not sure if you could use completely organic chemicals in hydroponics?

This quite long, but very interesting video shows how Cuba had to transform their food production since their oil imports were cut. They’ve basically had their peak oil moment already, and found a solution for it. And yes, it’s pretty much all organic.
youtube.com/watch?v=qakrdhBcok0

Although it looks like traditional farming on the surface, I wouldn’t say it’s traditional farming the way my grandparents did it. Advances in organic fertilizers, new knowledge in natural defenses against pests and new farming methods like aquaponics are making it a lot easier to grow food.

Blaquesmith, I believe elburro is correct, and I’m curious where you get the idea that only MORE mechanisation and MORE energy use can solve the problems we’ve created by using those things in the first place. It seems to me that established agribusiness is waging an extremely effective PR campaign. Hydroponics is not efficient at all - a properly-functioning organic farm will produce food of better quality at lower cost, and with less pollution. It’s also not sustainable, because it is utterly dependent on manufactured inputs.

When economists talk about ‘efficient’ farms, they invariably neglect upstream and downstream inefficiencies: they look only at the farm itself, which is just stupid. For example, an organic farm can use low-grade “waste” (such as chicken poo) as inputs, which is doubly beneficial because it prevents those valuable materials from being dumped and causing pollution problems.

Anyway, food is grown hydroponically not for efficiency, but because of supply chain demands: supermarkets and distributors lay down stringent specs for product appearance and timing, and the easiest way to meet that demand is to grow things in vats, and farmers can make a lot of money by delivering (say) tasteless off-season tomatoes. If this distribution paradigm didn’t exist, hydroponics would be a tiny niche activity.

Personally, I don’t like organic certification schemes though. Aquaponics is not inherently sustainable or unsustainable; it can be either, depending on the implementation. If it’s part of an integrated agriculture system, and uses the minimum amount of inputs, it should certainly be considered “organic”. If, on the other hand, it’s run like a factory, then it quite obviously isn’t - because it depends on expenditure of energy, feed, drugs etc that would otherwise not be necessary. The idea mentioned back there about a ‘trusted list’ is a far more sensible way of doing things, and avoids the bureaucracy associated with certification, which small farms simply can’t cope with.

An alternative farming method in land scarce Singapore to broaden the discussion:-

skygreens.appsfly.com/home

There are also some YouTube videos on the subject

[quote=“finley”]Blaquesmith, I believe elburro is correct, and I’m curious where you get the idea that only MORE mechanisation and MORE energy use can solve the problems we’ve created by using those things in the first place. It seems to me that established agribusiness is waging an extremely effective PR campaign. Hydroponics is not efficient at all - a properly-functioning organic farm will produce food of better quality at lower cost, and with less pollution. It’s also not sustainable, because it is utterly dependent on manufactured inputs.

When economists talk about ‘efficient’ farms, they invariably neglect upstream and downstream inefficiencies: they look only at the farm itself, which is just stupid. For example, an organic farm can use low-grade “waste” (such as chicken poo) as inputs, which is doubly beneficial because it prevents those valuable materials from being dumped and causing pollution problems.

Anyway, food is grown hydroponically not for efficiency, but because of supply chain demands: supermarkets and distributors lay down stringent specs for product appearance and timing, and the easiest way to meet that demand is to grow things in vats, and farmers can make a lot of money by delivering (say) tasteless off-season tomatoes. If this distribution paradigm didn’t exist, hydroponics would be a tiny niche activity.

Personally, I don’t like organic certification schemes though. Aquaponics is not inherently sustainable or unsustainable; it can be either, depending on the implementation. If it’s part of an integrated agriculture system, and uses the minimum amount of inputs, it should certainly be considered “organic”. If, on the other hand, it’s run like a factory, then it quite obviously isn’t - because it depends on expenditure of energy, feed, drugs etc that would otherwise not be necessary. The idea mentioned back there about a ‘trusted list’ is a far more sensible way of doing things, and avoids the bureaucracy associated with certification, which small farms simply can’t cope with.[/quote]

You’ll notice that I didn’t mention mechanisation and energy. I said we need more efficient ways of farming (and, clearly, using behemoth machines that consume huge amounts of gas isn’t). But sticking to the traditional ways isn’t, either. Growing greens locally would cut on fuel/distribution costs and lower pollution, for example, but that wouldn’t solve that some areas would have a fruit & vegetable deficit.

Another huge problem is the distribution scheme. The distributors are bullies and extort the farmers into selling at low prices in order to gain more. Then buy huge amounts of fruit and store them into the fridge until they can raise the prices (out of season). That’s f*cked up. Selling the fruits and vegetables seasonally instead of all-year-round would also cut energy costs, avoiding unnecessary storage and stockpiling.

I don’t know about Taiwan, but in Spain, for example, every year it’s the same: some farmers can’t pick a huge part of their own fruits and vegetables because the price that the distributors pay them is lower than the cost of harvesting them. Then huge amounts are left to rot in the trees and all which they invested in growing them is lost. That’s what should be changed. The way of doing things.

Blaquesmith: thanks for the clarification, and I completely agree. The fucked-up distribution paradigm for food is the main reason many of these problems exist; and that, I believe, is a result of our inefficient transport infrastructure (and tacit gov’t support, of course). If we had better ways of getting small quantities from A to B, individuals or small stores could buy direct from ‘trusted farmers’, and big ag would become obsolete. Farmers and consumers would both be much better off.

In some parts of the world people have taken steps to correct the problem: producer-buyer coooperatives that match producers of healthy food with local (at most regional) buyers who are willing to eat food in season and as it comes to exist in their local markets (i have been connected to such cooperatives when i was in Canada). On our own island here, we have a new farmers’ market where local poducers sell their goods, all of which are labeled with the name and address of the producer, so we can go back to the source if we have a reason. We buy most of our food there, because the quality of it is good and because we support the concept. We live well and healthy with not having food that is out of season…

Okinawa, right? So close, but so far.

Okinawa, right? So close, but so far.[/quote]
Even closer (about 270km from Taoyuan airport): Ishigaki
But still far…

Point i wanted to make is that your health (life) depend on what you eat, so it pays to work with and in systems that allow you to assess the quality of what you eat yourself.
Food imports, agribusiness, trade pacts like TPP - everything that destroys or weakens local and regional food sufficiency - is a threat to people’s health.
:idunno:

Okinawa, right? So close, but so far.[/quote]
Even closer (about 270km from Taoyuan airport): Ishigaki
But still far…

[/quote]

Cool, looks like a tropical paradise on photos.

Does anyone have some names and contact details of farmers they trust? I’m thinking of making a blog where I visit farms in Taiwan to check them out, and cook a meal with the ingredients I buy there. After some visits there’d be a list of farmers to trust.

You guys should make a list of things you like to eat and people with land and interest in farming can grow them out to sell. I have considered organic produce to supplement income, but the locals in my area are not going to pay more than any other veg so i dont bother. In Taipei especially, there is a decent local demand.

No i doubt it. bleach should kill the outer surface of the mushroom and cause bad discoloration. Mushrooms are not treated with much at all. its sterile culture and uses large amounts of energy, buts its not a toxic crop for sure!

they could, but it would cost money, and it would make Taiwan look terrible if it was all transparent. so on goes suffering and illness all for the doubling of KG at harvest. Taiwanese rather die early than look bad.

sounds weird on the surface, but is actually quite logical (not about not allowing non soil culture). aquaculture here is almost entirely non recirculating and just pumped. ground water alone is so polluted i doubt you could pass organic inspections based just on that. But it would likely depend where you are in Taiwan. Organic here seems to be more concerned with “cides” and fertilizers.

this is just cause most of our species are pretty primitive in how they think. few people can truly think outside the box, but implementing all the good aspects of all sorts of farming styles creates a pretty stellar system. polyculture locally will be the way until we get better efficiency/cleaner energy sources (or at least start embracing them as a reality, not a “cool thing to do”). but this requires really a lot of knowledge. Most experts are super smart at something, but cannot crossover to new ideas. A product of a completely SHIT education system pretty much everywhere. In reality most farmers wont be able to get it all, which means we should be getting help from AG extensions and other government or non places for help. But their wheels turn slow in this department, but are not all useless.

I am back in the land of happy and thinking for a month and will be visiting a lot of friends and friends of family to see their setups with “green food production”. if there is interest i will post pictures when i get back to Taiwan.

One thing that would REALLY help Taiwan is a good, reliable supplier of biological pest control (other bugs/fungus etc). they have some here, but somewhat limited in selection. maintaining good farm health and getting good supply of “good” bugs can almost entirely eliminate the use of non fertilizer chemicals. I am trying to run a pilot farm in the future which grows a little of everything just to prove its possible, but in reality it would be more logical for farmer coops to get together and have mushrooms farmers supply compost makers, which in turn supply fish farmers and plant farmers which in turn supply back to mushroom and compost etc. but i think, at least right now, Taiwanese are far to narrow minded and greedy for it to work smoothly, at least in the beginning.

The other problem here is land size. most farmers have pretty small plots, self included. I have a bigger lawn back home than i do total land in Taiwan. so that requires them to make sure they get their income from that crop. whether they need it or not, they feel secure in knowing they will get a fairly reliable harvest, and thats what it all boils down to.

Back here in Canada its common for people with some land to grow organic food and sell locally in boxes etc. Not as common in Taiwan, but if there were interest i would give it a serious thought after we finish building.

EDIT, papaya is sprayed here. but they do more in developing new strains to be disease resistant. they get hit hard by a few things. you can check the company that often has small seed packs in stores, known____ company. check their site for different papaya types.

Another depressing story about fruit and vegetable supply problems in Taiwan:-

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/loca … ticide.htm

Welcome to Taiwan

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[quote=“hannes”]I just learned that dragon fruit is pretty safe, because at least insects are not interested in the plants and therefore pesticides are not necessary. Also water bamboo (jiaobaisun) usually doesn’t require a lot of chemicals to grow, as a farmer in Puli told us.

I wonder how much poison is in apples imported from overseas. Some of those apples have a distinct chemical smell to me.

Another thing I hear frequently is that the skin of bananas is sprayed with some sort of “ripening agent” which is not very healthy and that you should wash your hand after peeling a banana. Any truth to that?[/quote]

Apples and other fruits are waxed to be ultra shiny to look good.

Bananas are put in ripening chambers because most are picked green, ethylene gas is used in the process.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

Disgusting.

Here is more info about the ripening of bananas with ethylene gas:

http://www.frontlineservices.com.au/Frontline_Services/Fruit_ripening_gas_-_ethylene.html

It says there are no health concerns. That true?

The ethylene gas emitted by bananas is also supposed to help ripening other fruit nearby, like if you put other fruits in the same bag. I’ll try that out.

I haven’t heard of any health problems with ethylene gas ripening, this is the natural process speeded up AFAIK.
I’m not sure what the system is like in Taiwan as the bananas are from here anyway. The ethylene process is often use on banana ships so they are ready for retail when they reach port.

gasses are used a lot to ripen many fruit in many countries. not sure about health, but its industry standard. all mangoes here are like that as well, usually use a rock. forget the chinese name, but everyone here knows it.

Belgian pie, that photo. taidong?

chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/loca … ticide.htm

seriously. Taiwan is so fucked. what is obvious is just plan scary, what isnt obvious worries me even more. once our well gets dug, growing our own food from here on out.

Anyone know where private interests can take things to be tested (honestly without any bias and typical Taiwan BS)? have some samples of things around me i want to know about their glow radius.

I would’t say it is just Taiwan. It’s the whole world, the whole food industry is fucked. And it’s hard to blame the farmers. With cheap mainland China produce increasingly flooding the market, extreme weather destroying crops etc., many farmers struggle to make ends meet. Now, I don’t want to know what’s inside vegetables from mainland China…