(Side note if only Taiwan had a political culture of blaming the current economic condition of the current leadership on the previous leadership.)
Hehe. No kidding. Only Taiwan has the culture where the president would march in a street protest advoating TI when he’s the god damned president! Who else is going to make TI happen?!
Why am I not surprised that Japanoid look-alikes were considered (by Japanoid eye witnesses) to be “average normal Taiwanese”?
No kidding. I’ve taken the time over the years to carefully and seriously think about all the TI positions (even the most extreme) and tried to put myself in their shoes. It was not easy to do, but I did it, and I have even changed my mind on certain things as a result. Have any of you done the same with, say, the “one country two systems” idea? No. I bet you don’t even know what it is (for Taiwan). Or even know your own side, for example, what is TI trying to achieve?
That could be it. Propaganda brainwashing via language barrier.
Or the other popular belief, it must be their significant other is Taidu, thus Taidu by bedroom association.
True. Bedroom association is definitely very strong, but I think Taidus are more likely to marry foreigners. No, it’s not a moral judgement, just an observation. So, it’s a self-selecting process before they even get to the bedroom.
zeugmite,
You mean they find it unappealing to be associated with asians, Chinese or Taiwanese they want to marry out. Could be plausible, hard to prove.
However, I did find this passage very interesting. I didn’t bother translating it until you brought up this point.
[quote]http://home.kimo.com.tw/chung228.tw/228main.htm
『中國人總喜歡說什麼「國家興亡，匹夫有責」。日本人也有同義不同字的說法。反正一個國家和社會將來如何？全看他們的第二代，尤其是要看像我們這樣子的大學生。
The Chinese have a saying " Every ordinary person is responsible for the rise and fall of his country. ". The Japanese also have a similar saying. How will a nation and society look in future? All depends on their second-generation. Especially looking upon college student like us.
[/quote]
Obviously the speaker who participated in 228 is a real gung-ho Japanophile. But in modern context are the Taidu faction trying to practice eugenics on the island by not allowing immigration and travel of PRC citizens into Taiwan, while allowing other countries easier immigration onto Taiwan.
True. I was thinking it’s a second order effect, along the lines that TIers have already had reasons to cozy up to foreign culture, foreign governments, and foreign people, so they gravitate toward that sort of interaction in larger proportions. Add to that the fact that foreigners who go to Taiwan instead of mainland China are also consciously self-selecting for political reasons. You end up with higher chance both ways.
There is more than just administrative reasons to keep mainlanders out. Probably happens at a subconscious level. But it’s true that TIers have seriously discussed eugenics as a means to make Taiwan irrevocably “not Chinese.”
Perhaps but then what about non pan-Greens that marry out and even PRC citizens. PRC and their citizens are usually even more outgoing than their ROC counterparts in my experience.
But here is a twist to that line of though. The people in the country side of Taiwan who get the brides from SE asian, claiming ROC women are not traditional enough. Vietnam and Thailand are useless to the TI cause internationally, and they add less value to “mixing,” if you’re trying to go for dramatic difference in the next generation.
Don’t get me wrong I know where you coming from. Just hard to prove. Emperically we would have to round up all the mix marriage on ROC and count party affliation.
I’ve really not met those types. I don’t think anyone cares that the PRC is communist anymore, that’s going there for business. Many that I meet who go to the mainland find the PRC citizens friendly and the ROC citizens aloft. That’s to be expected because the ROC citizens there are pretty well off and from good backgrounds mostly.
Most foriegners I met in Taiwan are there either because 1) They really want to learn Traditional Chinese 2) The company shipped them there for X years 3) Found a niche for themselves personally, professionally 4) Lost.
If there are foriegners going to Taiwan because it is “Free China,” I put them in the looney category as those going to the PRC to protest abortion or participating in underground Christian evangelism.
OK, good points. There are people who refuse to go to mainland China until it is “democratic.” I’ve definitely met those, but I think I’m mostly shtting myself on this one then… that’s okay.
What?!? Those are the ones that can’t afford to go anywhere. I just let them save face and nod with a blank face.
What about all of the English teachers that come here to make money. There are not enough rich people in China that will pay the same money as Taiwan to learn English. I know I know there are many many rich in China, but not like in Taiwan where almost EVERYONE can afford to pay what the foreign English teachers want.
Also, the government is more easy going here about foreigners setting up companies and getting capital out of the country.
China is mostly good for its cheap labor, not for making money selling things. Unless you are Kang Shifu Overall the Mainland is mostly good for factories, that is why the Taiwanese go there as they are the Asian kings of the factories. By the way, the funny thing is there seems to be more Taiwan Ren than KMT in China. Strange indeed. Maybe because KMT just take Black Gold money from Taiwan through their positions in the government and politics and Taiwan use their brains and start factories and work hard. Yikes, sorry for the generalization, but it is what I have found.
MODERATORS: PLEASE NOTE THAT THESE TWO POSTERS ZEUGMITE AND AC DROPOUT ARE OFF TOPIC AND ARE TRYING TO RUIN THIS 228 THREAD BY MAKING TOO LONG TO READ AND BY CHANGING THE TOPIC. I SUGGEST YOU DELETE ALL IRRELEVANT POSTS AS 228 IS A IMPORTANT TOPIC, BUT THESE TWO PAN BLUE SUPPORTERS ARE TRYING TO RUIN THIS THREAD.
I was just quoting the caption on the picture 
But, no. Further research indicates reports that there probably were some Taiwanese dressed up in their old Japanese uniforms singing old Japanese war songs. I admit I was wrong there, but don’t see how that changes what you were trying to say, ac. In fact, I’m not sure at all what you were trying to say. I’ll go back and look.
Anyway, if we’re talking about who was killed by the KMT armies, the majority were average Taiwanese, not these milita. Several sources describe the events - not just Kerr. And the local leadership that formed the reform committee were certainly distinct formt he younger extremists. They were local leaders, city council members, businessmen, teachers, doctors etc. After the initial slaughter of whoever happened to get in the way of KMT soldiers, these leaders, and their families were the ones targeted for execution. Ac, I think one of your earlier arguments was that those killed were armed rebels. That’s simply not true. The vast majority were not.
Brian
OK, bringing this thread back on topic.
I checked back and found the initial posts by ac_dropout and zeugmite.
The first argument by ac was that 228 shouldn’t be a holiday - it’s just used for political purposes. Zeugmite chipped in:
It’s not a celebratory holiday. It’s a day of commemoration. Countires all over the world have these. In NZ we have ANZAC Day which commemorates the slaughter of hundreds (thousands?) of NZ soldieers at Gallipolli in WW1.
Whatever the exact details about deaths etc, 228 is firstly an enormously formative event in the history of modern Taiwan. It is also fitting that the deaths of so many Taiwanese be commemorated - whether you believe it to be 1000 or 30000, it is still a great tragedy. It is certainly more relevant to Taiwan than two other public holidays that didn’t even happen on Taiwan.
The second thing that ac brought up in the post was a questioning of the numbers killed in the 228 massacre. He quotes a site detailing compensation given to families of victims. 1300 families have been compensated.
[quote]Even by the government’s own admission and fact finding only 1,300 victims or descendent of victims qualify. About 900 BSR deaths. Since WSR death during the time left no descendents.
So if the fact, that the pan-Green propagate is true, tens of thousand of people died because of 228, that would mean about 10 WSR died for every 1 BSR on 228.[/quote]
This is just ridiculous twisting of numbers. First, 1300 have been compensated so far. There could have been many times that number with no family left etc. Many families fled Taiwan. Many have emigrated since. There are scores of reasons why the number compensated could be many times less than the number actually killed.
I’m guessing your sentence “about 10 WSR died for every 1 BSR on 228” is not for real. If it is, it’s just plain stupidity.
Where I came into the argument was ac’s later claim that
That is simply untrue. An extremist minority were trying to overthrow the KMT government, but they didn’t make up anything near the majority of those killed. There were two waves of killing after the 228 incident. The first was those killed when the troops from China landed and shot people indiscriminatley. These were pure innocents in the worng place at the wrong time. The second wave was those who were part of, or associated with the reform committee, and then local leaders etc who might be seen as a threat. The only thing these people were ‘guilty’ of was negotiating with the government for reform and less corruption. Then a few years after 228, once CKS had landed, the ‘white terror began’ and even more were killed.
Brian
I was just quoting the caption on the picture [/quote]
But you have no cultural or social cues in your translation. You just assume they’re a volunteer militia. Whereas the orator in the speech makes it sounds like they were in the remains of a college military academy dorm.
This is common knowledge for people on Taiwan. At least I understand now why I always felt you gave too much resistance that LTH is a Japanophile extremist. Language barrier issues.
These are people who were college educated in Japanese; their deepest most abstract thoughts are in Japanese. Their identity is mostly that of a Japanese. Did the Japanese have a bias against the Chinese during this period? Was that anti-Chinese philosophy taught to on Taiwan?
If you are serious in taking on people like me or zeugmite in a debate on sensitive issues like this, you will need to increase the breadth of source material you digest. Because believe it or not all the key players through Taiwanese history are not fluent in English.
Then you should unflounder and undelete some of my relevant post if you truly see the error of your positions and biases in decisions made.
[quote]Anyway, if we’re talking about who was killed by the KMT armies, the majority were average Taiwanese, not these milita. Several sources describe the events - not just Kerr[/quote].
The reason I find Kerr less crediable outside his immediate role as being a liason for the USA, is because he can remember the name and details of officials in the KMT he dealt with. However, most of his experience dealing with the ‘common’ Taiwanese is vague and blurry. There is rarely any names. In one instance he cite 4 peasant that were POW held by the USA came by because they were concerned for him during the riots and “Paid the price.” What was the detail of the price? Never mentioned.
Many times in the Taidu narrative of events, there is rarely any mention of the greater turmoil ROC was going through. USA pulled their military support in January 1947 when they realized USA would have to get involved on the mainland and fight a war with the CCP and USSR. USA slapped together a large loan program for the ROC in its place of support.
Taidu narrative is that after 50 years of Japanese rule, Taiwan was a good place, they usually fail to mention the Japanese were just as harsh if not harsher than the KMT ever were on the island. They fail to mention that these “foreigners” were in the midst of a civil war and China had invaded the ROC for nearly 150 years, each one demanding money from China. Japan being one of the huge recipients of these payments twice from China, when they handed over Taiwan. So excuse the mainlanders if they look a little casually dressed, are pre-occupied with a war on the mainland, and a little short on cash.
Not to mention the CCP were established in Taiwan, not to mention the KMT was losing to peasant revolts on the Mainland.
But the average Taiwanese to a fault is not very cosmopolitan at this time. They are demanding self-rule and civil right to a wartime government fighting for survival. They demand to be treated like the “Japanese treated them.” To the ears of the average official Chinese in a wartime government that means “Japanese Massacre of Nanjing” or “Japanese Biological Warfare and Unit 731.”
But is that holiday narrative about the “foriegn European” massacre of aboriginals on NZ for breaking civil laws and demanding soveriegnty. Or spun in such a way to forever taint 1 political party on NZ.
But who died on 228, I contend it was mostly WSR at the hand of BSR.
That is the ROC government findings after a decade more of research. CSB administration has not cited any flaws in it.
Exactly, WSR fit this type of description perfectly.
Duel citizenship and the fact BSR have a huge family network on Taiwan makes it even less viable. BSR have on average 10 to 11 generation on Taiwan. The chances of a whole family tree getting wiped out due to 228 and white terror is kinda slim.
Only WSR who left Taiwan and not married to a BSR would fit this description.
These guys are suppose to die as traitors to ROC. There is no way justifying that they should live in the ROC government.
That’s 307. So who was dying from 228 - 306? Sounds more evidence WSR are getting slaughter by the mobs on Taiwan.
“Genki desu?”
“Ni shou shen ma?”
“chankoro no baka.”
Who? The WSR civilians who came over with the KMT government? Or the BSR rioters with elements of CCP, Japanese compatriots, local politician seeking political power from the weaken ROC govenment?
What? You have the minutes to these historic meetings? I suspect it was more like everyone was trying to do a power grab and set up a fiefdom since ROC looked like it was about to be defeated when USA pulled their support in January 1947.
Once again you are blurring the meaning of 228 and making it a political statement. 228 to you just another catch all of the evil of the KMT and institutional racism against WSR.
There is barely a credible point worth rebutting in either of those last posts, but this one is just plain ludicrous.
Unmitigated bullshit!
I haven’t floundered a single one of your posts on this particular thread, and I have never deleted even one of your posts on any thread.
Brian
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]There is barely a credible point worth rebutting in either of those last posts, but this one is just plain ludicrous.
Unmitigated bullshit!
I haven’t floundered a single one of your posts on this particular thread, and I have never deleted even one of your posts on any thread.
Brian[/quote]
You dismiss all evidence from Chinese sources and Chinese background history I have present. Even Chinese sources that are Taidu. Good for you. Wouldn’t want to expand your acedemic horizons too much. You might come to same conclusion I came to as a student. Taidu full of it and quite myopic.
You haven’t shown a single source that says that most of those killed in 228 were WSR.
Brian
You haven’t shown a single source that says that most of those killed in 228 were BSR, either. The point is, there is no direct accounting of how many people were killed in 228 and no direct accounting of how many of those were BSR or WSR. But, it cannot be both true that (1) 30000 were killed in 228 and (2) most of those killed were BSR. So pick one.
I stand by my assessment of 228 made earlier. forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 012#313012
If anybody has ever bothered to read beyond Kerr’s musings, one would know 228 is absolutely not what is public touted and not just what Kerr wrote either.
Even the government report tells a rather different story than the BSR legend. If we restrict ourselves to 2/28 up to early March when the crackdown ended, few if any BSR grandma grandpa had witnessed any so-called massacre. It was mostly hearsay, as it was also during the time when 2/28 happened. This is why the riots spread so fast in 1947 and why today there are several standardized and irreconcilable versions of “personal” “witness” accounts – alarm bells for urban legends. If you press them, it is always “neighbors tell me…” “I heard…” “Everybody knows…” It must seem like every Taiwanese was at the Taipei market where the cigarettes were seized. A bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
Frankly, this is nothing different from Iraqis who turn to insurgency (either for political reasons, or because they have an axe to grind), killing government and civilian targets and melting in and out of the local poplulation which basically support them. The aftermath is the same: crackdown with overwhelming force (a la Fallujah). You can just imagine how Kerr (if he were a European ambassador) would have written about all this in Iraq. The difference, of course, is that Taiwan was a province, not some other country.
Yes I have. Kerr and Shackleton are available online. Every other source I’ve read also syas this.
30000 is the very high end of estimates/claims of the numbers killed, but it’s not logically impossble that that manywere killed and most were BSR. Why would it be?
Brian