[quote=“plasmatron”] the people responsible for the decision of not having the primary station at the airport with a shuttle/link to Taoyuan city should be locked up for culpable idiocy…
[/quote]
HSR and airport will be linked by airport access MRT.
Will be linked with new Taichung MRT line.
Also, a lot of people don’t see to be aware that there is a train station connected to the Taichung HSR station with frequent commuter trains to Changhwa (10 minutes away) and Taichung.
I agree with the location of Jiayi and Tainan stations - absolutely useless. The HSR line actually crosses the TRA line less than 200m from Xinshi TRA Station. If they’d built it there, people could transfer easily to TRA services to get to downtown Tainan or places in Tainan County. They wouldn’t even have had to built a new TRA station like they did at Xinwuri and New Zuoying. Also, it would be more convenient for people going to Tainan Science Park or Yongkang (which just happens to be the biggest city in Tainan County). But instead they put the Tainan HSR Station in the middle of a former sugar plantation!
Which must have been a sweet deal for someone.
The main reason why so many stations are out in the middle of nowhere was to cut costs. On a project like this, most of the costs aren’t really on the construction but on the land purchase. If the stations were in the centre of towns, they would have needed to purchase long lengths of built-up areas on which to lay the track. The stations are out in the boondocks because that’s where it was cheapest to lay the track.
They could have upgraded existing lines but they would still likely have needed to purchase land along much of its length for environmental amelioration. And given how indirect the routes are on existing tracks, they wouldn’t have ended up much faster anyway. Plus during the construction the existing services would have been severely disrupted.
Not only that but absolutely everyone along the built up line would have been screaming about the noise levels - it would never have had any political approval. There are fewer people to complain about the noise out in the countryside.
So they had the choice - spend three times as much to get the tracks going into the centre of towns for a slower service or spend less and lay new tracks through the countryside. Either way they would have been saddled with debts that they could never pay off.
[quote=“greenmark”]The main reason why so many stations are out in the middle of nowhere was to cut costs. On a project like this, most of the costs aren’t really on the construction but on the land purchase. If the stations were in the centre of towns, they would have needed to purchase long lengths of built-up areas on which to lay the track. The stations are out in the boondocks because that’s where it was cheapest to lay the track.
They could have upgraded existing lines but they would still likely have needed to purchase land along much of its length for environmental amelioration. And given how indirect the routes are on existing tracks, they wouldn’t have ended up much faster anyway. Plus during the construction the existing services would have been severely disrupted.
Not only that but absolutely everyone along the built up line would have been screaming about the noise levels - it would never have had any political approval. There are fewer people to complain about the noise out in the countryside.
So they had the choice - spend three times as much to get the tracks going into the centre of towns for a slower service or spend less and lay new tracks through the countryside. Either way they would have been saddled with debts that they could never pay off.[/quote]
No. That’s a common assumption but wrong or very incomplete. They were built in the hinterlands because the company wanted to develop the land. Nita Ing’s background is in construction. From the start 50% of revenue was expected to come from development. The Chiayi station for example was supposed to develop into a little satellite town with the southern National Palace Museum branch its focal point.
The problem is that there is no need or interest in this kind of development anymore. Possibly in the future not now.
The Tainan station was almost certainly built on land owned by Taisugar, the state owned sugar company with huge tracts of land in rural Taiwan. It owns a lot of land near the Tainan station that it plans to develop. Obviously this was convenient since the government could order Taisugar to sell the land and Taisugar was probably happy to have a chance to develop its nearby holdings.
How did they pull it off in Taipei and Kaohsiung? Surely it must be harder and more expensive to do so in the two biggest cities than in the smaller ones?
By HSR:
My house > Taichung HSR = 40 minutes
Taichung HSR > Banqiao = 1 hour
Banqiao > In-laws’ house = 20 minutes
HSR tickets = about $2800 r/t for 2
Parking at Taichung HSR for 3 days or taxi = about $450
Taxi from Banqiao to in-laws = about $450
Total 2:20 and $3,700
By Car:
My house > In-laws’ house = ~2 hours
Fuel = about $700 r/t
Tolls = $320
Total 2:00 and $1020
Uhm…
Yes, Llary has outlined the issue well. The line runs closer to the city at many places than WuRi, which made it look like something fishy was going on,The situation will resolve itself somewhat with the building of a subway in Taichung.
There is a station due to be developed in Miaoli, it was cancelled and then 1 week later reinstated. There is a big plot of land that has been cleared at the station but nothing developed yet. The station is located about 10 mins drive from the city so not too bad. There are three counties along the line without a station at present that have got approval to go ahead, let’s see what happens when they do open! For a city like Miaoli it will be a big boon.
A lot of of strange decisions in Taiwan are related to land speculation, it’s the first thing I think of for when I ask ‘Why was that built there’. The same thing happened in Italy with ‘Autostrada del Sol’ which seemed mysteriously to divert into Mafia controlled towns wherever it could. The HSR was a feeding frenzy, since the project was guaranteed by the govt. massive abuse by contractors and connected land owners took place.
It doesn’t run anywhere closer to the regular train line in Taichung, though. And if you don’t live way up in the mountains around DaKeng, it’s really pretty convenient to get to – the expressway thingy goes straight to it. On my bike from my place in DongHai it’s ten minutes.
Not so sure about the “MRT will fix it” part though – it’ll have to actually get built first, and it’s a pretty ridiculous project.
[quote=“llary”]By HSR:
My house > Taichung HSR = 40 minutes
Taichung HSR > Banqiao = 1 hour
Banqiao > In-laws’ house = 20 minutes
HSR tickets = about $2800 r/t for 2
Parking at Taichung HSR for 3 days or taxi = about $450
Taxi from Banqiao to in-laws = about $450
Total 2:20 and $3,700
By Car:
My house > In-laws’ house = ~2 hours
Fuel = about $700 r/t
Tolls = $320
Total 2:00 and $1020
Uhm…[/quote]
You think this is America? Not everyone has (or wants) a car. Not everyone needs to make as many transfers as you to get to your final destination. You can get to Kaohsiung from Taipei in an hour and twenty minutes. Tell me your little car can do that. Sure, cars might be cheaper for fuel (then again maybe not for one of the longer trips). The point is the HSR serves a very real purpose. You mention taking lots of taxis. In Taipei and Taipei County, at least, there’s a bus that goes anywhere you need to go. I know Taichung’s bus system isn’t as reliable, but I’m sure you can bus from Banqiao to your inlaws. And, of course if you live 40 minutes from the HSR and have your own car it might not appeal to you that much. I dunno. I just find that post ridiculous, as if your example is somehow a standard for everyone and therefore the HSR has no purpose.
There are not enough people travelling Taipei <> Gaoxiong to support such an expensive system on their own. Therefore passengers in the middle are also important to make the project financially successful. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps and see where the Taichung HSR station is in relation to most of the city (or indeed any other HSR station).
Sure there is a shuttle bus but only to certain parts of the city and assuming you live near one you are still looking at 30 minutes minimum to walk to the shuttle station, wait for a bus and travel to the HSR. That is important because it drastically reduces the incentive to pay a very high premium.
While you are on your moronic high horse, do you know how much it costs to take the bus from Taichung to Taipei? NT$80 each way on a weekday. 6 times cheaper than the lowest offpeak HSR fare. I have taken the HSR, bus, car and train from various parts of Taichung and the HSR only ever works out 30 minutes faster at best for an extremely high premium. If I don’t want to drive I would rather take Aloha which is around $700 r/t, has massage seats with personal TVs, only takes around 30 minutes longer than HSR for half the price and stops at a few convenient places around Taipei city.
Same with getting to the airport, I usually take the Feigou bus for $220 and even with a taxi to the bus station still much cheaper and more convenient than HSR.
I’m not really disagreeing with your general point, but I’m not so sure about this bit. I used to take Aloha and such before the HSR started up … I remember long waits for buses, journey times up to three hours if it was raining and traffic was bad, buses breaking down on the side of highways and making us wait an hour for a replacement to come out, and so on.
For me, the HSR is a godsend. It’s barely over an hour from my house to our Taipei office in GongGuan, compared to 2-3 hours total by bus. I’m happy to pay extra for that.
No it doesn’t really. It serves a Taiwan that no longer exists, which is the poitn Nita Ing made. It was suposed to make money on business travellers going up and down the coast from office to factory to meeting. That culture left over the time the train was being built.
And no you can’t get to Kaohsiung in 1.20. There are very few express trains anymore and the train drops you off in Zuoying. Most of the trains take 2 hours now. 1.40 is about the fastest.
As Brendon writes, it works for some trips and some people, but not for many. Since I live by the highway in Taipei it is not much slower to drive to Kaohsiung than take a bus and MRT to the train station, wait for a HSR train and then take the MRT once in Kaohsiung.
I can be in Zuoying in 4.5 hours. By hsr it’s around 3. If I am travelling with a few friends it is far cheaper to drive.
I’m glad we have the train and that it gives us more options but it is not always the fastest or most convenient way to travel. I’m far mroe interested in the improvements to the regular trains: from above ground stations, to access with easycards, to bicycle racks in back carriages.
Yes Taiwan has changed because of the migration of factories to the mainland. And the train no longer has the clientele it envisioned. It took so long to get it to a working stage just in time to become unsustainable.
The worlds largest B>O>T project is now one of the worlds largest white elephants.
The TRA had for a great many years been losing money. The HSR killed off domestic airtransport but it itself is in trouble. The TRA has been able to reinvent itself to still remain viable.
I Like it and I hope it is able to sustain itself. Given enough time, it can get enough passengers as the towns near the stations become more populated. But only a government is able to sustain such a massive project for the length of time it takes to expect a return on investment.
Brendon reminded me of one reason we do occasionally take the HSR - it’s great for reserving tickets at times when we know all other transport is going to be jam packed. So that’s maybe two trips per year.
My father in law is disabled so he and a fellow passenger get half price tickets which comes to a much more reasonable $1000 or so round trip off peak for two. Then I just pick them up at the station.
I dunno, it seems like they need regular commuters to bring in the revenue and the system is just not convenient or cheap enough to make that viable for most potential customers. There is no incentive to book round-trip, there are no discounts for regular passengers or bulk booking and no airline style frequent rider program. And the HSR has a LOT of competition.
Here’s the killer - Kaohsiung - Taipei by air takes 50 minutes and $1200 each way. HSR is $1,495 each way. DOH.
I am one of the guys still going from office in the north to factory in the middle and sometimes south of Taiwan.
HSR simply does not pay for me, even when driving alone. I would save some 10 minutes from door to door, and would have to shell an extra NT$700 for the privilege. Not really interested, honestly.
Perhaps the regular train would work, however with the limited number of fast trains stopping in Yangmei, I don’t really think it would be a viable option.
If you live in a city like Zhubei it is ideal. Living in Taipei or Kaoshiung I feel it is also a big time saver for sales people and I know it’s popularly used for this purpose in local companies (the ones who will pay for it). For cities in the middle of Taiwan…not so much. If it is on your company’s expense most people would take it, on your own expense, perhaps not.
It is true that it was built for an average traffic estimate of 2-3 times what it carries daily and designed for business travellers to factories in general. At that time domestic tourism or commuting was probably a far off dream. The traffic will build with development of towns along the route and more MRTs but slowly I would guess. Llary also makes a good point that there is no incentive program. However he missed out that there are great discounts available during week and off-peak times. It’s also a great system to be guaranteed to have a seat (sign in Taipei station today as on most Fridays…sorry no seats available, that means no seats available on ANY line from Taipei in any direction…)
I would much rather take the HSR than either fly on a Taiwanese domestic airline, or use (shudder) a highway intercity bus service. There are reasons they are cheap, and these reasons do not include high maintenance and a culture of safety.