2 billion dollar loss/ 14 billion debt for HSR

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
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61

[quote=“llary”]There are not enough people travelling Taipei <> Gaoxiong to support such an expensive system on their own. Therefore passengers in the middle are also important to make the project financially successful. I suggest you take a look at Google Maps and see where the Taichung HSR station is in relation to most of the city (or indeed any other HSR station).

Sure there is a shuttle bus but only to certain parts of the city and assuming you live near one you are still looking at 30 minutes minimum to walk to the shuttle station, wait for a bus and travel to the HSR. That is important because it drastically reduces the incentive to pay a very high premium.

While you are on your moronic high horse, do you know how much it costs to take the bus from Taichung to Taipei? NT$80 each way on a weekday. 6 times cheaper than the lowest offpeak HSR fare. I have taken the HSR, bus, car and train from various parts of Taichung and the HSR only ever works out 30 minutes faster at best for an extremely high premium. If I don’t want to drive I would rather take Aloha which is around $700 r/t, has massage seats with personal TVs, only takes around 30 minutes longer than HSR for half the price and stops at a few convenient places around Taipei city.

Same with getting to the airport, I usually take the Feigou bus for $220 and even with a taxi to the bus station still much cheaper and more convenient than HSR.[/quote]

My only point is that just because the prices and times in your sample itinerary suck, this doesn’t mean that it will be the case for everyone. Personally I’d never use anything but a train to get from Taipei to Taichung, so I’m right there with you there. But there’s also Kaohsiung and Tainan. I have friends who use the HSR every weekend to get from TKU back to Kaohsiung every weekend to visit their parents.

The times where I HAVE taken the HSR, it has been packed pretty tight. I’m not saying that means anything. Sure, the cost was high, but Taiwanese officials only care about making Taiwan appear modern. Is the HSR a bad thing? No. Is it a good thing? Maybe for some. For me, I just pretty much stay in Neihu these days, but I am impatient and hate long trips and am more than willing to shell out the equivalent of 30 USD to get from the top of the island to the bottom in little over an hour, rather than pay 7 or 8 to take 8 hours to make the same journey. That’s all I’m saying.

For foreigners, this is a mighty opinionated crowd when it comes to local public policy. I guess it’s our tax dollar too, after all, but still. Damn. People are sooo nasty here when it comes to little things like the HSR. I fricking WISH the US had one close to where I am (edit:) from (edit over). God bless Taiwan for making the effort to be modern. We shall see how it all turns out. I mean, everyone is in debt, you know. Not just Taiwan. The US is adding about 3 trillion to the debt this year. the rest of the world is adding 2 trillion. And no one has the resources to pay off these debts, so its in debt where we all find equilibrium. At least Taiwan tried something productive. Unlike the US, where you apparently can’t even get a decent health care system without people crying “treason”!

Just ridiculous. Your points stand, believe me. I understand what you’re saying, but why so serious (to quote the late Heath Ledger, star of classic TV show “Roar”)? I should go ahead and apologize for my annoyed tone as well, but come on. This kind of thread getting this many pages… Let’s channel our energies into something positive.

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I think we can all agree that a US high speed rail with a terminal in Neihu would be awesome.

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Long tunnels, though, but not as curvy as Suao to Hualien tunnels. I would miss the gravel trucks and the BMWs cutting in to be closer to the trucks, then being too chicken to pass coz they know the truck driver eats bimmers.

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So a TV broadcast today has something about the HSR chairperson’s special secretary being brought to court for assaulting her staff. The interesting bit… she earned…wait for it… 440,000 ntd/mth! This is a ‘personal secretary’ folks…

My wife worked for them temporarily, she told me the game they used to play was ‘sign that contract’, nobody wanted to sing any of the obviously inflated contracts in case of getting sued later for corruption so her manager asked her within a week of joining to sign off purchase orders for goods she didn’t know anything about!

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[quote=“XinBiDe”][quote=“llary”]There are not enough people travelling Taipei <>

For foreigners, this is a mighty opinionated crowd when it comes to local public policy. I guess it’s our tax dollar too, after all, but still. Damn. People are sooo nasty here when it comes to little things like the HSR. I fricking WISH the US had one close to where I am (edit:) from (edit over). God bless Taiwan for making the effort to be modern. We shall see how it all turns out. I mean, everyone is in debt, you know. Not just Taiwan. The US is adding about 3 trillion to the debt this year. the rest of the world is adding 2 trillion. And no one has the resources to pay off these debts, so its in debt where we all find equilibrium. At least Taiwan tried something productive. Unlike the US, where you apparently can’t even get a decent health care system without people crying “treason”!
[/quote][/quote]

the u.s. is a third world country in many regards, public transit and health care system among two of those and taiwan’s got the u.s. beat hands down.

regarding the hsr, i think they built too many stations. dont they plan to add another three? taiwan’s not that big; i dont know why they need so many stations. makes a high speed line pointless.

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This system of “Build and Tranfer” simply doesn’t work with basic accounting methods.
We don’t build freeways in any country based on profit and loss. The same is true with MRT or Hi speed rail. Nobody is looking at time savings for business, reduction of pollutin from autos, tourism attraction, etc.
Build a bridge that would be nice to have but not 100% necessary. Of course, governemts charge a toll, just as they do with hi speed rail. We pay for the service. It can not be a break even situation based on profit and loss. Other factors must be considered.

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[quote=“thyrdrail”][quote=“XinBiDe”][quote=“llary”]There are not enough people travelling Taipei <>

For foreigners, this is a mighty opinionated crowd when it comes to local public policy. I guess it’s our tax dollar too, after all, but still. Damn. People are sooo nasty here when it comes to little things like the HSR. I fricking WISH the US had one close to where I am (edit:) from (edit over). God bless Taiwan for making the effort to be modern. We shall see how it all turns out. I mean, everyone is in debt, you know. Not just Taiwan. The US is adding about 3 trillion to the debt this year. the rest of the world is adding 2 trillion. And no one has the resources to pay off these debts, so its in debt where we all find equilibrium. At least Taiwan tried something productive. Unlike the US, where you apparently can’t even get a decent health care system without people crying “treason”!
[/quote][/quote]

the u.s. is a third world country in many regards, public transit and health care system among two of those and Taiwan’s got the u.s. beat hands down.

regarding the hsr, I think they built too many stations. dont they plan to add another three? Taiwan’s not that big; I don’t know why they need so many stations. makes a high speed line pointless.[/quote]

Not at all, they can stagger the trains to stop at different stations, to add three should have no major effect compared to the very positive effect it has on those counties, which have been badly affected by loss of industry and lack of investment in recent years. They are after all Taiwanese and they have a right to benefit also.

I think we can look at the high speed rail in the same vein as early investment in rail in developed countries. Most of the original investors lost their shirt in UK and the US, however the rail network was a very important tool of economic development in those countries. This system was never going to pay back in the short-term, just as the Channel tunnel didn’t. Were these projects worth it, yes, 10X over, especially if you consider the ridiculous sums evaporated by corrupt banking practices worldwide.

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And of course, it is the foreigners’ fault: :unamused:

[quote]Many foreign executives at the Taiwan High Speed Rail Corp. (THSRC) have tendered their resignations after being called "fat cats, " the THSRC chairman said Tuesday, expressing concerns the string of resignations will affect the transfer of knowledge about repairs and maintenance techniques to local staff.

Ou Chin-der said the foreign professionals have been hurt by the accusations which claim that the foreigners and other high-ranking local executives are entitled to an extraordinarily high salary in spite of the fact that the company has been running in the red. 

Ou said that he is trying his best to keep the professionals, explaining that at the current stage of its transport operations, the company still needs the foreign executives' expertise and skills in the maintenance and repairing of the High Speed Rail. 

In the international market, there's a high demand for experts in high speed railway operations. The THSRC foreign executives who have submitted their resignations each hold an average of three job offers in other countries, Ou said. 

Each of the job opportunities will pay them a salary that is on average 1.5 to 2 times higher than what they are being paid now by THSRC, he added. 

Meanwhile, Ou pointed out that the number of foreign employees in THSRC is dropping, with only around 80 remaining. 

The number of foreign staff had once accounted for one third of the company's total manpower during the railway construction period, but fell to 3.7 percent in 2008 and further to 2.6 percent in August. 

The manpower structure will undergo another change in June 2010, Ou revealed. 

The "fat cat" criticisms arose in September when Ou was picked by THSRC's board of directors to replace Nita Ing as company chairman in an effort to streamline company operations. At that time, THSRC's annual reports showed the company paid each of its 22 vice presidents over NT$2 million per year while each of its three foreign consultants earned NT$10 million annually.

[/quote]

Sigh

From CNA

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WTF do you need 22 vice presidents for? Sounds like it was a pay to play scheme.

Icon: It’s Always the foreigners’ fault!

Without the technical expertise, I envision a less safe ride. Shame really because it made taking my daughter to Taipei so much easier

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22 Vps… :unamused:

Check my salary ref. above for the PA’s salary (Taiwanese), circa 5 million NTD/yr. In the case of HSR systems it should be the case that consultants can get paid well, big expansion worldwide in these systems.

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Hey, for anyone else who needs to take the HSR out of Taipei on a Friday evening (but wants to just rock up, rather than setting a time in advance), I just discovered the following exploit:

  • Rock up to the train station
  • On your laptop, get online and book a ticket for much later that night
  • Click “Pay now”, let it redirect you to the payment site, and then stop and walk away
  • Go to the online pickup counter with your SMS’d reservation number
  • Observe the guy try to confirm your ticket, get a software error, call the engineer, and then apologise profusely for their system breaking your reservation
  • Tell them it’s quite okay, you’ll just buy a new ticket for the earliest possible train
  • Walk away with your ticket in just ten minutes (compared to 90 minutes in the regular queue)

I am seriously smug right now.

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Not being too critical but don’t they have enough problems without people purposefully screwing with the system? They really are trying hard to get it right, as with any new system. I simply don’t think your suggestion helps in the long run.

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I’ve never waited more than 10 minutes for a ticket.

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Well, I didn’t do it deliberately – I was just gonna reserve a ticket, pick it up, and then go hang out in Starbucks for a couple hours instead of standing in the queue. But it turns out that while you can get to thsrc.com.tw on Wifly without buying a timecard, you can’t get to their payment gateway, so I had to go pay cash instead.

Mucha Man: Have you been there on a Friday evening? It’s insane every week, literally hundreds of people queuing for every counter or machine, trains selling out an hour or more in advance.

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Brendon;
I am not being critical as I understood it was just one of those times. I just hope everybody doesn’t get the idea that this is an easy way to get around “the system”. By chance, I would probably have done the same. But let’s not make it a “good way to get around the system”.
Wish I could get away too!

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Well, I didn’t do it deliberately – I was just gonna reserve a ticket, pick it up, and then go hang out in Starbucks for a couple hours instead of standing in the queue. But it turns out that while you can get to thsrc.com.tw on Wifly without buying a timecard, you can’t get to their payment gateway, so I had to go pay cash instead.

Muzha Man: Have you been there on a Friday evening? It’s insane every week, literally hundreds of people queuing for every counter or machine, trains selling out an hour or more in advance.[/quote]

A few times, yes. It wasn’t a long wait. But I don’t go often so I really have no idea if I was just lucky. Sounds like a was or is it that there are fewer trains these days?

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If u do know in advance you need to travel , wouldnt it be fairly easy to get a ticket in advance?

I guess they should make it like an airline where u can book and pay for a run in advance.

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the thsr has only been opened for about 2 years now right? still just a baby that’s being teethed. i’m sure once it gets really settled over next several years after they finish building the mrt/rail systems in other cities and finish the developments around all the hsr stations and the economy improves then the ridership will increase again. i wish we had a hsr system in the u.s. especially from LA to SF. i dont even want to go up to my sister’s in SF for thanksgiving because i dont feel like dealing with airports or taking a plane or splurging on a plane tix and i dont feel like driving 5+ hours.

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She cute? Im near SF , I can just go there for you? (just kidding)

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taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003459220

hSR losing cool billion a year (USD) and now TRA reporting fiscal loss of 2 point 5 billion USD> I guess frankly Taiwan cant afford the HSR> Nice as it is. The two systems generate over 3 billion USD a year in loses??? Whereas the TRA has been losing money in the past but I guess manageable money.

Clearly the HSR is here to stay, its built and it has to be made to work. The TRA has some heavy homework to do. If the Tzechiang train makes 51pct of revenue, then concentration on those trains are the order of the day. The other significant “use” of the TRA is for short term commuters.

Therefore the TRA should concentrate on getting more of the new tilting ‘taroko’ trains and run them on the west coast. They will be almost as nice as the HSR and go to many more small stations. The short commuter trains should be carefully controlled for max efficiency to attract more riders from buses.

All the other trains like ChuKwang, Fushing , should be discontinued.

Run tzechiang more efficiently and run commuter trains more efficiently. This will clearly bring the losses down to a more manageable proportion.

The HSR as a long term project will be viable. It works in Japan. IT makes money. Its the trend for the new world as far as trains go.

The TW govt is being cautious in investing in the TRA. But this is a mistake as incorrect operational policies cost more in the long run. The buses can be conquered. The TRA has a lot of advantages. Such as being able to run the new “taroko” express trains on the west coast at speeds close to 160kph and being able to service a great many more towns then the HSR. And the short commuter trains can be way more popular if they are well timed like the TAipei MRT>. People will abandon the buses if these are well run.

My Gf recently went down south to touliu on the hSR, but had to get relatives to pick her up in the out of way HSR station. Came by via TRA tzechiang, which was easier to catch, but the tzechiang was not as enjoyable while on and took longer.

I stay import more taroko trains, straighten tracks, revamp the system for more efficiency. Dump all trains other then tzechiang and commuter. Make commuter trains well timed.