My name is Richard and I am a foreigner from Canada living in Taipei. Two weeks I was accused of stealing a small 25NT$ bag of chips from a 7-11 store. Now I never left the store when I ate the chips I simply forgot to pay. I know this sounds ridiculous but it is true. Now the owner wants to go to court on the matter and I am getting a little nervous because as a foreigner I am not sure what will happen to me. The other day I received a letter from immigration saying that there is someone investigating my case right now and I if I am found guilty then I will have to pay a fine and I think my travel ban will be taken away but this matter will remain on my record. If this is the case how long will it remain on my record? . This letter was written in Chinese so I had to get my friend to translate it for me. One of the police involved told me not to worry because it is a small uncomplicated case. Could I still get deported? . I did spend one night in the district office and I already made an appearance at the prosecutorâs office. I really donât want to go to court over this issue. This is my first offense. I also have a travel ban until this case is closed. The police officer involved went back two days later to talk with the store owner saying that I was willing to appologize but she was still very angry and wouldnât accept it. If anyone has had a similar situation, I would like to hear from you, thanks
Let me explain to you what happened. I was in the 7-11store on Roosevelt on Sunday Nov. 20, 2011 at around 5:00pm. According to the store owner I took the chips off the shelf at 5:15. However I donât know how he knows this because he was in front serving customers and I was in the back. When I took the chips off the shelf I noticed ther was a long line-up so I decided I would sit down at one of the tables in the back until the line-up got smaller. So I sat down at one of the tables in the back and proceeded to check my phone messages and text messages. In the meantime I proceeded to eat the chips. I also remember dozing off a few times while I was reading my messages. Approximately 1 half hour later or so, maybe it was 45 min. later, I checked the time on my phone and I rememer being a little surprised at how long I was sitting there and I remember thinking that I had better go home because I had homework to do. So I grabbed my things and proceeded to leave completely forgetting that I didnât pay for the chips. I deposited the empty chip bag in the garbage and proceeded to go out the door. But I donât remember leaving the store when the store clerk stopped me and told me to wait and that was when he called the police. So then 6 or 7 police officers came and handcuffed put me in the police car. I then spent the next 4 hours in the police station in handcuffs, spent the night in the disrict office in handcuffs and Monday I saw the prosecutor. Then I was allowed to go.
I donât have any advice but good luck to you. The story sounds completely plausible. One thing though, if you hadnât left the store then you didnât steal anything.
Of course, I wouldnât have waited for the police. Once I realized what they wanted I would have paid and left.
Muzha man is right: you didnât steal anything, but common sense doesnât apply here and the laws generally work against foreigners, anyways: the police might have taken you in even if you paid after you found out what was going on. Itâs pretty obvious the owner wants to take you to court; it would have been so easy for him/her to just ask you to pay for the chips assuming you forgot. Actually, that would have been the normal thing to do, especially since you didnât leave the store.
assuming all is as you wrote, thatâs appalling. Good luck, itâs silly going to court over such a small incident, an accident, that should have been tolerated and understood by the owner with your apology and payment.
Wouldnât you be able to get video camera / CCTV evidence showing you sitting there/or being in the shop so long? That would back up your story. I hope you get other helpful suggestions.
Richard, you make it sound like you did nothing wrong. But I wonder what your attitude was like when you got stopped by the store clerk. Were you hostile? If you acted in a hostile manner and did not attempt to figure out why the store clerk stopped you, then that is probably why he called the police. I made the mistake of almost walking out of a convenience store with some goods before. That only happened because I was in a hurry to go somewhere but I forget the details. What I do remember is, once the store clerk told me I didnât pay for the item, I stopped and realized that I was holding something that I had not yet paid for. I immediately apologized for my mistake and paid them. And that was that.
I see no reason why the store clerk would escalate the situation and call the local law enforcement unless your behavior caused him to believe that he could not resolve the situation by himself. I suspect that you may have raised your voice and behaved somewhat belligerently because you did not understand what the store clerk was saying or why he was trying to stop you. Perhaps he was speaking Chinese too fast? And compound that with the fact that you just woke up and your mind was in a haze. I can imagine how easily it would be to absentmindedly get rid of some trash (because you are not a litter bug) and leave to hurry up and finish your homework (because you are a good student).
I donât know if I would agree with that. Itâs still considered shoplifting if you put something in a container (in this case his stomach) without the intention to pay for it even if you donât leave the store. The police here are generally reasonable and would most likely have given OP ample time to resolve the situation unless OP was shouting angrily and refusing to pay. Handcuffs would not have been involved if it was not deemed necessary. Donât forget that OP said that 6 or 7 police officers came to the store. Ask yourselves what kind of behavior would warrant so many officers to contain the situation?
Yeah, I have to say, I donât know how old the OP is, but back when I was a kid, it was completely unacceptable to eat food in a supermarket or store before you had paid for it. 7-Elevens have tables and internet these days, but it is usually expected that you will purchase the food before eating it.
Gryphon is right to be suspicious of the OPâs behaviour.
However, thatâs not the point. Regardless of the OPâs behaviour, itâs not shoplifting, even if he was being belligerent. Unless the court can prove an element of intent, then regardless of the OPâs behaviour, he has committed absolutely no crime. I believe under Taiwanese law, a person must have absolute proof that a crime has been committed before they are able to apprehend somebody. Having reasonable suspicion that an offence has been committed or is about to be committed is not grounds to apprehend somebody unless you happen to be a police officer. Taiwanese law closely follows many aspects of western law in this respect.
The store owner has stopped a person from leaving the store without being absolutely sure that the OP was not going to pay for the goods. I hope the OP made this very clear in his statement and in the prosecutorâs initial hearing.
The courts are very nasty in Taiwan, more so towards foreigners and the whole system is extremely corrupt. I would highly recommend seeking legal representation because the prosecutor may well push for deportation for ânot respecting the laws of Taiwan.â
OP: Iâm not trying to worry you, but you MUST MUST MUST find legal representation. Get the CCTV tapes. Get all the evidence which supports you defence. Make sure the police emptied your pockets and recorded all the money that you had on you - if they didnât, they werenât doing their jobs.
The courts need to prove intent and you must have left the shop. If they canât prove intent and you didnât leave the shop, then they have no case, but it wonât stop them from sentencing you if you do not know the law or have nobody to represent you.
You may get the chance to settle out of court. This will normally involve mediation and paying compensation to the owner and will not normally involve receiving a criminal record. As it is possible that this is what the owner is after (I doubt that justice heads the top of her priorities) then it may well be better to say sorry and cough up depending on the amount. If you are innocent, then it is a hard thing to do, but it will stop further complications for you - and letâs face it, I doubt justice heads the top of the courtâs priorities either.
However, I am no lawyer and no expert. The laws may have changed since I was last made aware of them, which is why you need to seek legal representation.
Edit:
Make sure the police also have the empty potato chip bag and the till receipt roll as exhibits. Again. if they donât have these items, it counts towards your defence.
I donât know where you grew up, but the law is partly in place to protect the consumer as well as the proprietor. If you break a jar of jam in a supermarket, you havenât paid for it but you have technically used it. Depending on store policy, you may have to pay before you leave or make further arrangements to pay in the future if you are carrying no funds. (Of course, these day, stores usually write it off as a loss, but ignoring any civil cases, finding a criminal case of intent to damage would be very difficult).
People often eat in restaurants before getting up to pay. Some people go outside for a smoke or to their cars before they pay. Many bars carry tabs which you can pay when you leave or even next time you come, if yo are a regular.
Some people use a personal shopping bag and conceal items in that bag and reveal them at a checkout. Some people consume food and produce an empty bag or wrapper at the checkout. Itâs technically the same thing.
At 7-Elevens, newspaper stands are often located outside and most of them are located between the entrance and the cashier, thereby allowing anyone who buys a newspaper to be open to criminal investigation. This is why proof of intent is very important.
What is âexpectedâ and what is the law are two different things.
I dont know about Taiwanâs laws on this matter but here in California it is considered a crime to consume food that is not paid for while still in the supermarket. Just like it is already considered shoplifting if you put something in your jacket while at a store. Even though in theory it is not proving intent of shoplifting until you attempt to leave the store with it. There was the case of the grandfather being bodyslammed by police on Black Friday a few days ago. He was knocked out cold onto the ground and blood coming out of his head. He said he only hid the item under his clothing to avoid others snatching it as Black Friday âshoppingâ is often violent.
Better not to eat any items in a 7/11 or elsewhere before you pay for them.
I feel that this person probably escalated the conflict . I dont see how a regular 7/11 owner would want to bother with all this if he had simply said "oh sorry " and paid. He should have said sorry and grabbed a few more items and paid for it all. Showing him as a good customer.
Being handcuffed by the police on Taiwan means the person is considered a threat. Better then in the USA bro, cuz you wouldve been tasered.
Motto: DONT even think of eating anything in a store without paying for it first. People have gotten into shit for that over here in the USA countless times.
I dont remember all the details right now but i remember reading about a couple here who also got into all sorts of court appearances and what not over a single small item not paid for at a supermarket.
See what happens when security sees you eating some dried fruit at a supermarket here (you know where its tempting to grab a small piece from the pile. Or what happens when you go into a Target store and are seen on camera putting a DVD into your coat pocket.
Sure you may have no intention of shoplifting and its easier to carry the DVD in your jacket pocket (because maybe you didnt have a basket and you only wanted to buy that DVD) but its considered shoplifting right there.
I dont agree with this personally but I wouldnt try either of the above over here, nor elsewhere in the world.
I think Hans has got the point. It was a pretty dumb thing to do - most people donât wander into stores and start eating things before paying for them, even if (in your locale) itâs technically not illegal. However, the owner obviously sees this as a way to get a nice wad of cash out of a naive foreigner. The sensible thing to do would have been to apologise and give him the 25NT when accosted, then walk away - but hindsightâs a wonderful thing. Make arrangements to negotiate with the store owner (perhaps with legal representation present - I canât comment on that). Then pay what he asks. Itâs unlikely to be more than a few thousand NT$. He knows heâs got you over a barrel but almost certainly doesnât want to actually go through the courts. When itâs all over, you can tell us how much you gave him and where the store is located. We can then ask as many friends and acquaintances as possible to never, ever, give that guy any custom.
Thatâs assuming youâre giving us the whole story, of course. And that youâre not a troll.
[quote=âSuper Hansâ]
The courts are very nasty in Taiwan, more so towards foreigners and the whole system is extremely corrupt. I would highly recommend seeking legal representation because the prosecutor may well push for deportation for 'not respecting the laws of Taiwan.[/quote]
Is there a thread or can we start a thread that gives us advice and contact for legal representation? I have done extensive searches about this and not found any information. The consulate sites are useless because they mostly just list law firms that deal in corporate/IP issues. Can anyone recommend an English speaking lawyer for individual cases like this one?
Right. Your a foreigner caught stealing. Your fucked laddy so no need to lose any sleep over it. On the other hand I have done the same thing here and the 7/11 staff have said hey, come back your forget to pay. Many people can be absent minded and 7/11 stores often get people forgetting. I have even payed and walked out without the goods and had the staff calling me to come back.
But the store owner calling and several police officers coming, handcuffing you and taking you to jail overnight for a $25 bag of chips? Something more to the story than merely forgetting to pay imho. I havent found 7/11 staff so vindictive to call the police over a mere forgot to pay over such a small amount.
I think the OP should present his best possible defence, that of insanity, or being under the influence:
And, fall down the stairs, and get a pro to make it look like it happened the night of the incident.
That way, any fiend of a 7-11 owner, that would take the time and expense to sue a chap over a bag or crisps, would surely get their comeuppance!
ok, assuming the OP has been honest with the initial post it would be good to hear back from the OP if he was argumentative, as seems likely.
Anyway, on top of bags of receipts from convenience stores that you could use to show as evidence that you often pay small amounts-to show intent to be honest,CCTV evidence you should try to get (inside and outside the store)âŚ
âŚalso get a friend-local or foreign, to go to the store and video tape (using a phone) local Taiwaners reading newspapers before paying. Itâs extremely common at 7-11s, permitted by all staff, and would show this particular owner to be a hypocrite if they say items should not be consumed before being paid for.
If anyone knows if surreptitiously videoing strangers in such a way is illegal here, please say.