I had problems with all three letters. In the first, part of the letter seemed as if the writer was finally venting longheld frustrations, and hence the not too well thought out feel of the letter. I’m still trying to figure out how everything ties in to the crappy English channels on cable TV. In the second letter, I agree with other posters- the writer was definitely happy for the opportunity to bash the US. You couldn’t get a more Russian sounding name. But I’m not fooled- good piece by someone from Toronto in my opinion. In the last letter, the Taiwanese writer engaged in some serious self-flagellation. We all have our gripes, but Taiwan is no way anywhere as bad as the writer believes. I don’t know about the rest of you, but many of my complaints about Taiwan are complaints only because the solution seems so easy, so doable. I certainly have never complained of any type of general unfriendliness of the Taiwanese (I have the opposite impression).
shawrema -
I agree most heartily with your comments.
Especially regarding the friendliness of the Taiwanese I have run into.
At my age I have learned to distinquish sincerity from BS and am rather continually amazed with the sincerity I encounter among complete Taiwanese strangers.
Of course a lot of it, I do believe, stems from the fact that I simply expect and give sincerity in my dealings with them.
And, BTW, I am most definitely not wearing any rose coloured glasses…lol.
I think it might boil down to the adage - Ya get what ya give.
Now put that leg up here on this ladder and…oh wait…thats another thread…nevermind…
Bashing the US was definitely not the intent - merely serendipitous. I only wanted to demonstrate that the qualities Thompson suggested were rooted in Taiwanese culture are not unique to this island.
I’m not from Toronto. I wonder why you would think that…something peculiar about Canadians and their hate/hate relationship with T.O.
And the name is Ukranian, not Russian; four generations removed from Kiev (not that that would make much difference if you really believe that one’s opinions grow out of their ethnicity). But then you refer to the author of the third letter as Taiwanese (presumably based on HIS name) despite the fact that he clearly states that he is a foreigner living in Taiwan in his opening paragraph.
Better work on your reading comprehension skills (I pity your students)…Wen Chi-pang is clearly referring to George Thompson…the author of the first letter. 
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]Better work on your reading comprehension skills (I pity your students)…Wen Chi-pang is clearly referring to George Thompson…the author of the first letter.
[/quote]
OK. You win the narrow point. :bravo:
The nationality of the third author remains unclear. I misread it as referring to himself as a foreigner.
In any event, the invitation to kiss my ass remains.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”]…To use a situation such as the beating death of this poor child as an excuse to vent your personal grudges is nothing, I would think, one would wish to call attention to…
I do not see you addressing any of these as they relate to the cultural quandries they give rise to here on the island…
I find your dismissal of Mr. Medved as just "another asswipe foreigner sitting in judgement with nothing more than cultural arrogance to support weak and twisted logic. " as pretentious and self-serving. He reasonably states his case…
I do not doubt your disagreement with the issues Mr. Medved raises.
What I do question is whether you desire to address these issues or simply use them as a stump to spout simplistic anti-USA (Western civ.) platitudes rather than address the issues he raises.
The seperation of the two issues appears to be beyond your ability in this matter.[/quote]
This post is so confusing it’s difficult to know where to start.
First, I guess, is that I AM Medved(ovsky)…I wrote in response to THOMPSON’S letter.
Second, what personal grudges? You lost me here.
Third, if you read the original letter from Thompson, the weak logic and cultural arrogance which is offered in support of poorly considered opinion is all too obvious. There is nothing “reasonable” about his case, or the way he states it. THAT was what prompted me to write.
Fourth: “Simplistic anti-USA platitudes”?
What? Where? Huh? It would be so much easier debating this point with you if you would make some effort to stick to reality.
If you read THOMPSON’s letter, THEN my letter, I think you’ll find I address each of Thompson’s “points”, in order and quite directly. Perhaps your confusion in this regard stems from your misunderstanding of who is who, and who wrote what.
As for seperating the issues, I have no trouble with that. When you find yourself clear on seperating one writer from another, perhaps the issues will follow.
This thread is getting too persnal. Please focus on the issues and the arguments.
Brian
uhhh…errr…pie say I guess…(opinions may vary with lacality)
and a
[color=red] Happy Chinese New Years to ALL ![/color]
[quote=“Avrom”]
In any event, the invitation to kiss my ass remains.[/quote]
Ask the mod who keeps removing my replies.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Avrom”]
In any event, the invitation to kiss my ass remains.[/quote]
Ask the mod who keeps removing my replies.[/quote]
Moved to…perhaps…‘Dating & Romance’ ?
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]
Ask the mod who keeps removing my replies.[/quote]
:bravo: MODS! Quality counts!
I too was quite turned-off by Avrom’s letter to the TT. It sounded to me like the cultural inferiority complex of quite a few foreigners who end up leaving their countries to live overseas for any variety of reasons. While child abuse is a problem all over the world, including the US, the difference is that American society has attempted to do something about it (albeit not perfect, but it’s taken very seriously by the authorities and the general populace). The difference in Taiwan is that for many, many years, this kind of beating has been perfectly acceptable. Teachers and parents have always beaten kids. This is a part of the “society” or “culture” or whatever you want to call it. And, the Taiwanese authorities and the society at large has done little to deal with the problem. Kids still get beat by their teachers (although not as much as before), and many parents still think it’s perfectly fine to beat the hell out of their kids for spilling something, not getting perfect grades, or whatever. Try calling the police and getting them to do something? If you report child abuse in America, the police and Social Services will get involved immediately. If a teacher in America suspects abuse, they will get involved immediately (it is required by law). That does not happen in Taiwan. Child abuse is not mutually exclusive to Taiwan, but the fact that it still goes on, little has been done to curb it by the legal system or the public, and the fact that the media has focused all of the blame on Ma Ying-jiu and the doctors is a product of the society/culture’s attitude towards parents beating the shit out of their children.
Yes but the original letter made child abuse out to be the fault of inherent deficiencies specifically in Taiwanese culture. Which is bullshit. Yes there are deficiencies in this regard, and yes they exacerbate the problem, but to state that they are the cause of the problem is crap, pure and simple.
I have read all three of these letters. I haven’t been to this thread in a while, so I’m not biased about the animosity that has been developing here.
Here’s my 2cents:
The first letter: I’m sure this guy wishes he never wrote it. It was a rambling bunch of liberal blame the society for our sins crapola.
The second letter: I saw this as a snarling attack/rebuttal of the first letter, and I remember as I read it the first time, how right he was for shredding the first letter. (Although, I must say, Avron, explain your thoughts but get off the defensive. Just because you were right IMO to critique Thompson’s letter, you’re being an ass now.)
The third letter: Wei is right on IMO. It must be disturbing for the Taiwanese people who do know better who see the “ugly” parts of daily life here. But there are many folks who don’t know better. That is a fact I face every single day watching guys walk out of 7-11 and tear their Long Life’s open and throw the plastic to the wind, or Moms who slap their children in the face for spilling juice…or…you know the list.
But Taiwan is changing much faster than America is now, as they two countries are at different points in their histories and development and maturity. It is a mistake to compare them. Compare taiwan now to 1900 Urban life in America. That may be more reasonable.
Ten years ago, how different was it here? Think traffic, think Bai Bing Bing, think street dogs running in packs around Taipei, think mountains of trash in the streets.
People are changing, and so is daily life. I meet more nice people than “ugly” people. There is a great sense of powerlessness in the “good” people though…but that too is changing. My wife, who is Taiwanese, just said to me, “He (Thompson) can’t blame the whole society for what one person says or does.” Where I live, the new mayor has cleaned up the streets, put in brick roads, made public spaces into flower beds. It looks great. I heard that his own company made most of the materials needed. So, you see…there is progress and there is the old way. They are not inseparable, but they are not separate now.
We want to ask ourselves: Is it really getting better? Being here 3 years doesn’t cut it IMHO. Ten, twenty, more…you folks know things DO change, and I hope, like I do, you see that things ARE getting better.
Peace. 
BTW, what happened to the father of this little girl? Has he been sentenced? Tried?
There really isn’t any basis for making this assertion (this is the second time it’s come up). I’m beginning to suspect that what people see in that letter has far more to do with the reader’s nature than any words I used, or meaning fairly taken therefrom - one of those, “To the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail” situations.
I’m really not suffering from any cultural inferiority complex. Hell - I’m Canadian. Our entre culture rests on the statement, “We are not American.”
Well…that, hockey, maple syrup and Gordon Lightfoot songs.
Admittedly, this is just the sort of culture one might feel inferior about - especially when stacked up against sociieties that have rather more history/culture going for them. But I don’t. Really, honest-to-truly…I think comparing cultures by any qualitative measure is foolish and a waste of time.
Nevertheless (and Thank God for Tetsuo repeatedly pointing this out…otherwise it would get pretty f***ing lonely out here), I was neither praising nor berating, supporting or insulting, or preferring one culture over the/any other. ALL I did was assert that there is no basis for saying that DUPLICITY, UNACCOUNTABILITY and IRRESPONSIBILITY are inherent facets of Taiwanese culture; that the exact same sort of tragic situations (child abuse AND denial of medical services) occurs in so-called developed countries as well.
Since then, I’ve been accused of America-bashing, having a cultural inferiority complex (by a guy who calls himself “littlebuddha” hehe), and kissing local ass. Jesus on skis, people! This board is so full of projection, they ought to charge psychiatric consulting fees. I expect the pot to arrive any minute and start in on my being black.
Except…I’m not black.
Post about my insensitive, racist and intentional use of insulting-to-African Americans metaphor in 5…4…3…2…
:loco:
[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”] While child abuse is a problem all over the world, including the US, the difference is that American society has attempted to do something about it (albeit not perfect, but it’s taken very seriously by the authorities and the general populace)…
If a teacher in America suspects abuse, they will get involved immediately (it is required by law). That does not happen in Taiwan. Child abuse is not mutually exclusive to Taiwan, but the fact that it still goes on, little has been done to curb it by the legal system or the public…[/quote]
Google “McMartin Daycare” for a glimpse of the tragedy that can result from the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction. It is not the only example.
Also, the phrase “mutually exclusive” means that EITHER A or B can exist, but they cannot exist together - they are MUTUALLY (together) EXCLUSIVE (opposite of INclusive). I think the term you wanted to employ might be “unique”.
Thanks for the pointer. Luckily I’m not an English teacher. 
As horrendous as this situation was, I think it’s definitely a good sign that it’s being so hotly debated in Taiwan.
In the US, such a situation wouldn’t even get press, and even if it did, the public wouldn’t much care. In the US, such a story wouldn’t raise an eyebrow. Nobody would give enough of a shite to protest, as people are in Taiwan.
This happened, as abhorrent as it is, and people are protesting in a variety of ways. The fact that it happened is obviously bad, but the fact that people are reacting is a sign of national health. To use a body analogy, the human body reacts to a foreign object or bug by attacking it. That’s the sign of a healthy immune system. That’s how Taiwanese are reacting to this event, and that’s a good thing.
This situation reflects on Taiwan positively because it shows how passionate Taiwanese are about basic human services. There will always be problems, the questions is, how does a society react to those problems.
In the US, according to my knowledge, emergency rooms can’t deny a patient if they are ‘critical’. However, if they can stabilize the patient, they can then discharge them (throw them on the street), even though they may die in a matter of hours. And that is indeed what they do. Even this is proving too expensive for many US emergency rooms, so hospitals are reacting by simply closing down emergency rooms in poorer districts.
And in the US, a story like this? Nobody would give a shite.
This never should have happened, but Taiwan is reacting in a healthy manner.
You’re being facetious, right? Most of the blame has been put on Mayor Ma and the doctors. I haven’t heard much about the asshole father.
And as far as not getting coverage in the US, do you ever check out US newspapers or CNN.com? I see stories all the time about kids getting abused. Child abuse is taken very seriously in the United States.
[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]
…as far as not getting coverage in the US, do you ever check out US newspapers or CNN.com? I see stories all the time about kids getting abused. Child abuse is taken very seriously in the United States. [/quote]
That’s laughable. If the US really cared about children, there wouldn’t be such a high rate among children in the areas of:
- infant mortality (the US has a higher rate than Taiwan)
- lack of health care (44+ million Americans with no health insurance)
- poverty
- illiteracy
Stories on CNN.,com don’t mean shite.