A Charter of the People of Taiwan

[sofun]

I’m looking for volunteers to help me with drafting or editing a Charter of the People of Taiwan in English. Yes, I’m taking advantage of free resources on the interment. By helping me out you get paid nothing, and you’re not violating anything, and you’re not joining any organization whatsoever. You can be anonymous, anybody or everybody. (But of course, google keeps a record of everything written.) You don’t get credit for it because I don’t either. Nobody does. Here is what I have for now, and i’m sure so far it’s littered with bad choice of word

V2014.06.27.b

[i]Whereas on the Islands of Fomosa there have been continuously inhabiting indigenous peoples, whether considered aboriginal or native,

Whereas such inhabitants have through generations already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores,

Whereas such inhabitants have named the Islands “Taiwan,” and thus named themselves collectively as a people after which, and

Whereas we unanimously recognize oursevles as the descendants, inheritors and individual constituents of this people,[/i]

We the People of Taiwan hereby enter into a covenant to proclaim as the supreme statue of Formosa and Pescadores, this Charter to be enacted and entrenched in perpetuity, in order to uphold and safegaurd our natural and inherent right to autonomously govern these Islands and Ourselves, against subjugation to and persecution by any state, regime, authority, power, or administration.

[ARTICLES]
ARTICLE 1.The Islands of Formosa and Pescadores constitute Taiwan, of which we are the free people, and the right, title and claim of which we assert exclusively and naturally.

ARTICLE 2. Taiwan, whether wholly or in part, shall never again be made a part of any country, nation, or state, that is not of Taiwan’s own origin, whether by way of treaties, agreements, merger, incorporation, conquest, coersion, occupation, or mass migration.

ARTICLE 4. The People of Taiwan by means of democracy form as the sole and highest authority a Government of Taiwan, which owes its sole allegiance and sole accountability to the People and the country of Taiwan, and which defends itself and Taiwan against any incorporation, annexation, union and subjugation by another government, state, regime, authority, power, or administration that is not of Taiwan’s origin.

P.S. Facebook group recently created here for convenience: facebook.com/groups/charterTaiwan .Discussions on different platform will need to be synchronized in the future.

[TheGingerMan]

Sounds like a crusade.

[sofun]

From the perspective of a native Taiwanese(myself), I think it is necessary to set a serious tone from the very beginning, so people get the right idea of what it is about.

[TheGingerMan]

@sofun

From the perspective of a native Taiwanese(myself), I think it is necessary to set a serious tone from the very beginning, so people get the right idea of what it is about.

Fair enough.
But why not write it in Chinese?

[sofun]

It is better to write it in a more accurate and robust language first, as the reference text. Then, the reference text will be translated, and easily translated, into any other language used in Taiwan, including Mandarin.

[Gryphon]

@sofun

It is better to write it in a more accurate and robust language first, as the reference text. Then, the reference text will be translated, and easily translated, into any other language used in Taiwan, included Mandarin.

So… you’re saying that English is better than Chinese… Are you really a Taiwanese person? :eh:

BTW, OP, you have some spelling errors there and incorrect use of words…

[TheGingerMan]

@sofun

It is better to write it in a more accurate and robust language first, as the reference text. Then, the reference text will be translated, and easily translated, into any other language used in Taiwan, included Mandarin.

What Utter Rot.

I suppose I could go on about how such an opinion is beyond the pale, but I fear this may all be a wind up. I keep thinking that folks can’t be that obtuse, but somehow keep getting proved wrong.

“More accurate & robust”

Jesus fucking christ!
:eh:

[sofun]

@Gryphon

[quote=“sofun”]It is better to write it in a more accurate and robust language first, as the reference text. Then, the reference text will be translated, and easily translated, into any other language used in Taiwan, included Mandarin.

So… you’re saying that English is better than Chinese… Are you really a Taiwanese person? :eh:

BTW, OP, you have some spelling errors there and incorrect use of words…[/quote]

English is a better choice in the current situation. So the short answer to the first question is Yes.

And yes, spelling errors and incorrect use of words galore. This should convince you that I am a Taiwanese. The Charter is posted here for co-drafting and co-editing.

[sofun]

@TheGingerMan

[quote=“sofun”]It is better to write it in a more accurate and robust language first, as the reference text. Then, the reference text will be translated, and easily translated, into any other language used in Taiwan, included Mandarin.

What Utter Rot.

I suppose I could go on about how such an opinion is beyond the pale, but I fear this may all be a wind up. I keep thinking that folks can’t be that obtuse, but somehow keep getting proved wrong.

“More accurate & robust”

Jesus fucking christ!
:eh:[/quote]

If it’s up to me, no specific RoX or RoY whatsoever should appear in the Charter . The idea is to have a Charter having higher authority than any constitution of any so-called republic or government, or administration. The Charter will outlast the government(s)

Thanks for the ridicule, for giving me another chance to clarify. No hard feelings.

[sofun]

I also need a couple of articles in this charter to focus on human rights. It is hard to condense various Charter of Rights and Freedoms into a few articles. But I hope it’s doable. After that, I think the forum moderator can move this thread to back to Taiwan Politics, where there is more traffic.

[Hokwongwei]

Fact: Nearly everyone in Taiwan speaks Mandarin natively or near-natively.

Fact: Few people in Taiwan speak English natively.

Since it’s a charter of the people of Taiwan, isn’t getting a bunch of foreigners to help write it in English kind of… you know… not representative of the people of Taiwan?

[hansioux]

I don’t use facebook, so I’ll give my opinion here.

[quote]Whereas such inhabitants have through generations already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores,

[ARTICLES]
ARTICLE 1.The Islands of Formosa and Pescadores constitute Taiwan, of which we are the free people, and the right, title and claim of which we assert exclusively and naturally[/quote]

If the charter is to outlast governments, then I wish territory isn’t specified in the charter. There’s no mention of the 13 colonies or what people should constitute the people of the new United States in the US bill of rights.

I don’t really mind which language you choose to draft it in.

[Ermintrude]

I’d change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are ‘indigenous’, ‘inheritors’ and have not ‘inhabited Taiwan for generations’. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.

[Hokwongwei]

“ARTICLE 2. Taiwan shall never again be made a part of another country, nation, or state, that is not of Taiwan’s own origin, whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, or occupation.”

What if the people wanted to be part of another country, nation, or state? There are a good deal of whackos out there who varyingly say Taiwan is part of China, the US, and Japan.

[sofun]

[quote=“hansioux”]I don’t use facebook, so I’ll give my opinion here.

[quote]Whereas such inhabitants have through generations already united as one distinct people and established one permanent and uniform country over the entirety of the Islands of Formosa and Pescadores,

[ARTICLES]
ARTICLE 1.The Islands of Formosa and Pescadores constitute Taiwan, of which we are the free people, and the right, title and claim of which we assert exclusively and naturally[/quote]

If the charter is to outlast governments, then I wish territory isn’t specified in the charter. There’s no mention of the 13 colonies or what people should constitute the people of the new United States in the US bill of rights.

I don’t really mind which language you choose to draft it in.[/quote]

The rationale for territory specification is the following:

Within the specific territory boundary of “V”, that is to say, at least within the physical space of “V”, the rights and freedom of the people of V is guaranteed and protected.
Similarly, if within the specific geographical boundary of U, the people of “U” want similar protection, they will have to come up with an equivalent charter.
And similarly for “W.”

Failure to at least specify “V” will result in none of the peoples in “V”, “U” and “W” and so on getting protected. Nobody will move to do any and say anything at all.

Regarding the 13 colonies, I think that scenario is in itself a unique case, and is irrelevant to Taiwan.

But thank you for your input. I’d invite you to revise the charter too and see if omission of territory works well.

[sofun]

@Ermintrude

I’d change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are ‘indigenous’, ‘inheritors’ and have not ‘inhabited Taiwan for generations’. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.

Thank you for participation. I encourage you revise or modify it. It’ll be a good process for everyone.

Rationale:

1. Surely, currently in 2014, not all Taiwanese are indigenous, but in 3 generations they will be as indigenous as anybody else.

2. Currently in 2014, immigrants are more global, and some of them may come and go freely. Those who become non-Taiwnaese need not be concerned with this charter either, since they will have assumed another nationality anyway.

3. The preamble is to explain the rationale of drafting this charter, to justify a charter. At any given point in time in Taiwan’s history, the well-being of the newcomer is founded upon the society already founded by the indigenous Taiwanese. Notice we’re talking about something universally true across time in the context of Taiwan. Push back 501, 1001, or 5001 years, in each instance, there were already indigenous Taiwanese, who did not really go anywhere, and we’re the decedents of these folks.

4. Immigrants come to Taiwan fully aware that there is already indigenous population and society (which a HUGE plus, because the foundation of a society is already built, and the immigrants don’t need to start from scratch).

[sofun]

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]“ARTICLE 2. Taiwan shall never again be made a part of another country, nation, or state, that is not of Taiwan’s own origin, whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, or occupation.”

What if the people wanted to be part of another country, nation, or state? There are a good deal of whackos out there who varyingly say Taiwan is part of China, the US, and Japan.[/quote]

The short answer is: Then those people you speak of will certainly not sign the charter.

The long answer is: This concern is irrelevant because, the purpose and design of the Charter is not to invalidate itself (that’d be stupid!).

[sofun]

[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Fact: Nearly everyone in Taiwan speaks Mandarin natively or near-natively.

Fact: Few people in Taiwan speak English natively.

Since it’s a charter of the people of Taiwan, isn’t getting a bunch of foreigners to help write it in English kind of… you know… not representative of the people of Taiwan?[/quote]

Rationale 1: Some foreigners are friends of Taiwan. Some of them might even make a baby with a Taiwanese person this friday night. You never know.
Rationale 2: Only the content and the benefits of the proposed Charter matter.
So I’d say don’t worry about Mandarin for now.

[sofun]

Newly inserted as ARTICLE 3.:

ARTICLE 3. This present Charter is the supreme law of Taiwan, and any law or agreement that is inconsistent with the provisions of the Charter is of no force or effect, and any government, regime, administration, authority, and state that enacts such a law or enters into such an agreement, whether coming into force or not, is deemed illegitimate and shall be derecognized, disarmed, and dissolved immediately by the People of Taiwan.

ARTICLE “E” Pursuant to ARTICLE 3, safe passage to airports shall be negotiated by the representatives …

Newly revised last paragraph of the preamble:

We the People of Taiwan, [color=#FF0080]by the principles of democracy and the rule of law[/color], hereby enter into a covenant to proclaim jointly as the supreme statue of Fomosa and Pescadores, this Charter to be enacted and entrenched in perpetuity, in order to uphold and safegaurd our natural and inherent right to autonomously govern these Islands and Ourselves, against subjugation to and persecution by any state, regime, authority, power, or administration.

Newly revised Article 2. Built-in to prevent genocide by migration (both planned mass immigration and planned emigration, in light of historical precedents)
whether by means of treaties, agreements, conquest, coersion, occupation, or [color=#FF0080]mass migration[/color]

[Ermintrude]

@sofun

[quote=“Ermintrude”]I’d change the wording in English to take into account that not all Taiwanese are ‘indigenous’, ‘inheritors’ and have not ‘inhabited Taiwan for generations’. American, Vietnamese, South-African born Taiwanese nationals have a stake too and the doc should be more inclusive in tone. Taiwan needs to recognise its immigrants, many of whom are mothers or have served in the army as conscripts, more.

Thank you for participation. I encourage you revise or modify it. It’ll be a good process for everyone.

Rationale:

1. Surely, currently in 2014, not all Taiwanese are indigenous, but in 3 generations they will be as indigenous as anybody else.

2. Currently in 2014, immigrants are more global, and some of them may come and go freely. Those who become non-Taiwnaese need not be concerned with this charter either, since they will have assumed another nationality anyway.

3. The preamble is to explain the rationale of drafting this charter, to justify a charter. At any given point in time in Taiwan’s history, the well-being of the newcomer is founded upon the society already founded by the indigenous Taiwanese. Notice we’re talking about something universally true across time in the context of Taiwan. Push back 501, 1001, or 5001 years, in each instance, there were already indigenous Taiwanese, who did not really go anywhere, and we’re the decedents of these folks.

4. Immigrants come to Taiwan fully aware that there is already indigenous population and society (which a HUGE plus, because the foundation of a society is already built, and the immigrants don’t need to start from scratch).[/quote]

Hi, sorry, I recommended it by accident because the button is next to the ‘Quote’ button, on my phone.

sofun, these are hopelessly anachronistic viewpoints. It’s an ethnocentric world view that Taiwanese people are not subject to when they emigrate and an offshoot of that kind of ‘special snowflake’ Han chauvinism that Taiwan needs to avoid in order to be perceived as a modern country and to not just sound like China.