A Drought -- you've got to be friggin' kidding me

Fox: Indeed. When I went to bed last night, it was raining. When I woke up in the middle of the night and it was raining. It was still raining when I woke up this morning. It has not stopped raining all day.

Drought deniers!!!
You might be wading through a deluge, but just remember. That’s weather, and the drought is climate. :slight_smile:

Yes, the drought was very bad today, but it seems to have taken a breather this afternoon at least in Neihu.

Actually, the Taipei Times had an unintentionally funny article today about the drought. Some commentator said that 800,000,000 tonnes of water are lost due to leaking taps and pipes to houses, enough for 45 days of water supply. It was your usual prattle about how bad the drought is and the difficulty in solving the problem of getting residents to fix pipes and taps and also the feed pipes to houses. The article finished with “Taiwan Water Corp. said it had budgeted more than 2 million nt (69444) with the aim of reducing leakage by 14% by 2014.”

Jesus H. Christ can’t we up the ante a little bit here boys. You run out of water on average every three to four years and at the risk of grinding the country’s economy to a halt, you have budgeted $69,444 dollars. Oh My Fucking God! I’ll give you a loaner on that amount.

[quote=“Fox”]

Jesus H. Christ can’t we up the ante a little bit here boys. You run out of water on average every three to four years and at the risk of grinding the country’s economy to a halt, you have budgeted $69,444 dollars. Oh My Fucking God! I’ll give you a loaner on that amount.[/quote]

People still have to pay for water that comes out of leaky faucets so I don’t think the water company is in a hurry to see them fixed. :wink:

Raining cats and dogs in K-Town today. It cools things down nicely.

That sounds familiar. Why am i inclined to find that believable? :wink:
Another point to add to Lee’s points: You will find information in some of the article i have linked to at A drought? No kidding that suggests that reservoirs are not a good choice considering Taiwan’s topology and climate.

A few thoughts (“in the rough”; nothing conclusive) in reference to Lee’s proposals:
About reducing leakage:

  • certain pipes are owned by the water corporation, and to reduce leakage on that level capital is required - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
  • certain pipes are owned by water users, and those owners may feel inclined to reduce leakage if the water rate is raised high enough (assuming the leaks are located after the meter) or if they are fined for leakage or denied water delivery (in cases where leaks exist before the meter)
    About wastewater reuse:
  • wastewater plant upgrades require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
    About sewage treatment:
  • sewage lines and treatment plants require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)

A few other thoughts (things to consider):
Cisterns: in many parts of the world with sporadic rainfall people use cisterns to collect rain water. (Such water can be used for other things than drinking water.)
Rate increases: easy to implement. (They require a political decision)
Rate increases: increasing the water rate would provide an incentive for fixing leaks and generate capital for necessary investments.
Fines for wasting water: easy to decide but enforcement not only difficult (lots of opportunities for bribing, cheating, etc.) but also with undesirable social consequences (such a system requires intrusive actions on part of a “water police”)

Tentative bottom line: much hinges on politics - politicians will act this way when they get kickbacks from the industry and that way if the people put enough pressure on them - kickback systems cannot be fully eradicated but can be weakened by strengthening and enforcing appropriate laws - politicians will act in the right direction if the people put enough pressure on them - thus it all comes down to what the people decide to do

:2cents:

That sounds familiar. Why am i inclined to find that believable? :wink:
Another point to add to Lee’s points: You will find information in some of the article i have linked to at [A drought? No kidding that suggests that reservoirs are not a good choice considering Taiwan’s topology and climate.

A few thoughts (“in the rough”; nothing conclusive) in reference to Lee’s proposals:
About reducing leakage:

  • certain pipes are owned by the water corporation, and to reduce leakage on that level capital is required - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
  • certain pipes are owned by water users, and those owners may feel inclined to reduce leakage if the water rate is raised high enough (assuming the leaks are located after the meter) or if they are fined for leakage or denied water delivery (in cases where leaks exist before the meter)
    About wastewater reuse:
  • wastewater plant upgrades require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)
    About sewage treatment:
  • sewage lines and treatment plants require capital - who will provide that? (That requires a political decision)

A few other thoughts (things to consider):
Cisterns: in many parts of the world with sporadic rainfall people use cisterns to collect rain water. (Such water can be used for other things than drinking water.)
Rate increases: easy to implement. (They require a political decision)
Rate increases: increasing the water rate would provide an incentive for fixing leaks and generate capital for necessary investments.
Fines for wasting water: easy to decide but enforcement not only difficult (lots of opportunities for bribing, cheating, etc.) but also with undesirable social consequences (such a system requires intrusive actions on part of a “water police”)

Tentative bottom line: much hinges on politics - politicians will act this way when they get kickbacks from the industry and that way if the people put enough pressure on them - kickback systems cannot be fully eradicated but can be weakened by strengthening and enforcing appropriate laws - politicians will act in the right direction if the people put enough pressure on them - thus it all comes down to what the people decide to do

:2cents:[/quote]
In other words, criminal mismanagement. Thank you.

Some people are simply too proud to admit the error of their ways, sandman.

But you are certainly most welcome to your simplistic world view. :discodance:

But you are certainly most welcome to your simplistic world view. :discodance:[/quote]

After trying to ridicule and belittle me and make me look like a fool you ultimately come the full circle to my opening post:

After the longest spell of rain in the island's history, now we are told we are in the midst of a drought. Is that possible? Fire the dude in charge of water resources. It has rained every day almost for eight long months. There is a thread dedicated to it on Forumosa that bemoans it with avengence and now we are told their will be water restrictions. Last time, 8 years ago there really was a drought because that was the last time northern Taiwan saw three fine days in a row. What a miserable bunch of leaders this island really has.

40% more rainy days in Northern Taiwan than normal.
More than average rain in almost every county we looked at.
A lot of bureaucratic mishandling and possible corruption in water-resource handling – 69,444 dollars dedicated to solving the leaking water problem.

The facts, hey?
And you think I have the simplistic world view. I wasn’t the one pushing the simplistic drought view it was you, dragon bones and mucha man. Just admit you were wrong. It’s not so hard. You were keen to ask me to do it. Why not yourself after examining all the facts? Pride is what it is. Too bad for you.

Maybe i haven’t been as clear as i could have been, so let me clarify:

As far as my view of you as a person is concerned i got the impression form various posts on of yours on Forumosa that you’re a nice guy. Other than that i don’t know you, and i have absolutely no reason to say anything negative about you. And i haven’t said anything negative about you. However, it is possible that some of my comments have been unclear, and so i would like to apologize for any inadvertent misapprehensions i may have caused.

As regards this discussion: i have been taking issue with your claim that there is no drought anywhere in Taiwan, because i believe that argument is unsupported not only by the data that are available online (from the CWB and from other sources) but also by observable reality (such as reservoirs with low water levels). Any talk about pride and admitting errors is as irrelevant to me as assertions that Taiwan has had a higher annual rainfall last year than in years before. The explanation for why “annual rainfall” is irrelevant in the context of this spring’s drought in Taiwan can be found in many sources, some of which i have given URLs for, but i have no need and no reason to repeat any of what i have posted, and i will not engage in the argument about the drought with you any more, either.

This post is only to make sure we have it on record that i have no reason (or desire) to say anything negative whatsoever about you as a person.

Lastly, i will repeat that reducing an disagreement about a complex issue like climate and weather (mixed up with human nature and politics to boot) to “Some people are simply too proud to admit the error of their ways” is no better than a “simplistic worldview”. Now, you may in reality have a more differentiated view and just used that phrase for some other effect in the discussion :wink: - so, if you retract it, i will certainly retract my reaction to it, too. :smiley:

Otherwise, over and out. :wink:

‘drought’ is not possible in one area only 20 km away from another with significantly more rainfall than normal.

Taiwan may have a water shortage (low dam levels, etc) but it is NOT in drought. Come back after three or four years of rainfall less than 30% of average and I’ll call it a drought.

Taiwan has shitty water management coupled with profligate wastage from people who don’t give a shit and don’t know any better.

Taiwan is NOT in a drought.

Good that we have that cleared up then. :wink: That get’s us right back to Sandman’s suggestion to call it “water shortage” - however, this is what transpired after that, so are we going into a time loop now by suggesting that in Taiwanese English “drought” means “water shortage”?

A few excerpted posts from this thread:

:bulb:

That would have been a better choice of words, for sure. But, for better or for worse, in “Taiwanese English” the term is now “drought” - and people from other countries need to understand that it may not mean what it means in their home countries.[/quote]
:bulb:

:bulb:

[quote=“Mucha Man”]It’s not just Taiwan that calls these kinds of seasonal water shortages droughts. So does Vancouver where I come from. We’re one of the rainiest place in Canada but if we don’t get a lot of snow in the winter then we have water shortages in summer. Doesn’t matter how much it rains in the spring, we need the snow melt.

[quote]B.C’s provincial environment Minister Barry Penner advised British Columbians on Monday to brace for possible drought in many areas of the province this summer following two months of unusually warm and dry weather.
Snowpacks in river basins across B.C. are below normal levels and with only four to six weeks of winter remaining, time is running out to make up the difference.[/quote][/quote]
:bulb:

[quote=“Charlie Jack”]If Taiwan is experiencing a drought, I guess it’s a socio-economic drought:

drought.si/index.php?page=drought][/quote]
:bulb:

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote]The Concept of Drought
Drought is a normal, recurrent feature of climate, although many erroneously consider it a rare and random event. It occurs in virtually all climatic zones, but its characteristics vary significantly from one region to another. Drought is a temporary aberration; it differs from aridity, which is restricted to low rainfall regions and is a permanent feature of climate.
Drought is an insidious hazard of nature. Although it has scores of definitions, it originates from a deficiency of precipitation over an extended period of time, usually a season or more. This deficiency results in a water shortage for some activity, group, or environmental sector. Drought should be considered relative to some long-term average condition of balance between precipitation and evapotranspiration (i.e., evaporation + transpiration) in a particular area, a condition often perceived as “normal”. It is also related to the timing (i.e., principal season of occurrence, delays in the start of the rainy season, occurrence of rains in relation to principal crop growth stages) and the effectiveness (i.e., rainfall intensity, number of rainfall events) of the rains. [/quote]
drought.unl.edu/whatis/conce … perational[/quote]
:bulb:


OK, once more a summary of the given links:
pdc.org/iweb/drought.jsp?subg=1 (antarcticbeech)
library.thinkquest.org/16132/htm … types.html (Charlie Jack)
drought.unl.edu/whatis/concept.htm[/quote] (Mucha Man)

Have fun, guys :discodance:

[quote=“urodacus”]‘drought’ is not possible in one area only 20 km away from another with significantly more rainfall than normal.

Taiwan may have a water shortage (low dam levels, etc) but it is NOT in drought. Come back after three or four years of rainfall less than 30% of average and I’ll call it a drought.

Taiwan has shitty water management coupled with profligate wastage from people who don’t give a shit and don’t know any better.

Taiwan is NOT in a drought.[/quote]

That’s what the drought debunkers have been saying. It is like AJ said they are trying to ride this thing on the coat-tails of climate change to avoid taking any responsibility for poor management.

No need to apologize. It’s all in good fun. I realize you are only trying to wind me up. I’m just pointing fun at the ridiculous idea of a drought. I do a lot of weather in my day job, I don’t think any weatherman is considering this a drought.

Why are you dragging my name back into it? :stuck_out_tongue: All I did is point out the incorrect nature of your admittedly flawed facts, and make a joke post about dripping air conditioners.

OK… are we now talking about a language use issue? Let me assume for a moment we are. (Should this be a new thread?)

Let me ask something while keeping in mind the data concerning the word “drought” that i 've piled up in that post that you can see on your the screen just above the post of yours that i am quoting here:

Many here are English teachers, no? How do you settle disputes about what words mean? Do you take a vote somewhere? Or do you rely on dictionaries? Or your gut feeling? And what do you do when an Australian and a Canadian and a Pakistani disagree on what a given word means? Do you call a few Americans and ask them to be the world language police and decide the issue for all of you? Or do you throw the dice? Or do you leave it unsettled on the level of “the same word can mean different things in different varieties of English”?

An inquiring mind - in this case that of a non-native speaker - would like to know. I’ve never experienced such a language muddle as here on Forumosa. :wink:
(No, no, this is not a complaint! It’s actually rather - or is that quite? - entertaining. :bravo: )

let’s change the direction of the topic somewhat (I’m in Vancouver at the moment getting over jetlag and have lots of time to hassle you bubs). What is this criminal incompetence I keep hearing. From my perspective, the authorities here have managed for several decades to provide water for domestic, industrial, and agricultural use for one of the most crowded places on earth (and that includes a place with one of the highest factory concentrations too). No one has ever died for a lack of water. We manage to have a petrochemical industry, steel, IT, rice, etc, all of which require very heavy and reliable water supplies.

So someone please explain how what in many ways is a pretty impressive accomplishment is actually criminally incompetently managed? Yes, of course we all know about leaking pipe. Blah blah blah. If that’ts all you have please give your fingers a rest. I want something real and substantial since you are suggesting as much.

It’s simple enough. A drought is measured or seen in the way plants and vegetation grows. Are things looking green and lush or brownish and dry? Water shortage, on the other hand is measured by calculating the amount of water available and the amount of water required.

I blame the news for crying drought when all it is is poor water management. Fox is right. There is no drought. Look around you. Things are green and lush. Here in the south, things were starting to dry out a bit but it’s over already. June will bring all the rain we need and more.

How about the 69444USD budgeted for reducing water leakage that accounts for 800 million tonnes of wasted water? The plan is to reduce the wastage by 14% by 2014. Now surely the economic loss to society of any level of water rationing would be more than 69444USD on any given day that the water was rationed, for example what if production at TSMC or UMC were put under threat. Just the notion of it being put under threat would have a greater economic cost than 69444 dollars in strategic planning. Then there is the threat to society, security, social disruption. Even closing a few swimming pools is going to account for that much money in a couple of days, couple that with the local car wash guys trying to eek out a living. Imagine for example, if you proposed that miserly amount of money in Canada. It is the amount of money that any sane person under scrutiny would know to keep out of the hands of the press, but the very fact that they think it is proactive is a clear window into their incompetence. A concrete water tank costs 130,000 nt. They are proposing the value of 15 concrete water tanks to solve an 800 million tonne problem. That in and of itself is criminal incompetence surely. Please remove your blinkers. I take offense at the idea that this kind of criticism is some veiled slight on Taiwan. I have lived here longer than 20% of the population. I have well and truly earned the right to this opinion.

It is a less than impressive accomplishment to have high-rainfall annually and be running out of water. That is the definition of a botch up not something to be lauded. I for one think Israel’s ability to provide water for agriculture and it’s society is way more impressive than the laughable attempts that pass here. The blah, blah, blah does not belong in this camp. Sorry.

How about a link, fox. I am in no way inclined to believe your numbers simply because you have stated them. In any case so what? The CRIMINAL incompetence comes down to not adequately fixing water pipes in taipei which never suffers any serious problems anyway. I mean that’s all you have? Colored me as uninpressed as i frankly knew i would be.

Fixing the pipes in taipei would be very very expensive and from what i have read would only improve leaking by a few percentage points. Worldwide average is around 17% while Taipei is 22 or so. So you would have the city spend billions just to get the average down a few percentage points. You can’t entirely fix the problem, especially in an earthquake zone. Pipes will always break and leak. So on a cost analysis is it really worth it? Possibly it is now, but ten years ago I would say that the city was probably making the better decision not spending billions to fix the pipes.

Okay, so anyone else will a real example of criminal incompetence?

[quote=“RobinTaiwan”]It’s simple enough. A drought is measured or seen in the way plants and vegetation grows. Are things looking green and lush or brownish and dry? Water shortage, on the other hand is measured by calculating the amount of water available and the amount of water required.

I blame the news for crying drought when all it is is poor water management. Fox is right. There is no drought. Look around you. Things are green and lush. Here in the south, things were starting to dry out a bit but it’s over already. June will bring all the rain we need and more.[/quote]

Okay, another definition of drought. This one is a little out there but we appreciate your contribution.