A North Korea thread


Hardly a representative sample.



I know. And no breakdown according to age (for the “nownsurvey,” that is). I honestly couldn’t find anything better. I blame it on Obama.


Duly noted, and that does carry some weight with me. However, an awful lot of people in the US didn’t see the last election result coming. They got way out of touch in their own country.

Public opinion is fickle, and most people don’t really know what they would do until they’ve done it. That’s one reason I don’t entirely trust polls.

But historical precedent gives insight. This sort of thing has happened before.


@rowland I don’t disagree with what you are saying in many cases but I don’t totally share your perspective. You are not incorrect, and I’m not saying my opinions are what is right here. I understand what you are saying, but like I said, South Koreans are ready for war. But they don’t want to seek it out. It very may come to that the North will one day attack. Not other then a large standing army with awful technology and weapons and possibly a usable nuke that may or may not just blow themselves up people don’t really see the North as a real threat to their lives today like before.
The north has been talking about war for 60+ years since the armistice and it’s really been all that. Talk. So you can understand why people kinda just ignore and take what they say with a grain of salt. You can only threaten war so many times but after 60+ years of saying you will invade, people just don’t take it so seriously.

Another thing, Germany was seperated for about 30 years, Taiwan and the mainland for about 30 years. The North and south have been separated for close to 70 years. So you can see why I say there is less and less of this we are all Korean and we will unify sentiment going on. People understand the people are suffering in North Korea, they are not numb to that. In fact I remember as a Kid sending a balloon full of snacks over at the boarder around the DMZ. But South Korea has advanced so much in 70 years, and the North is literally like if you went into a time machine. They look almost the same now as before.

And it’s not about taking on refugees or immigrants. We are talking about a entire land that has no infrastructure. Besides Pyongyang, they literally don’t have electricity or any roads. If you look at how advance the south is, it’s a bit weird to connect a country that has the fastest internet in the world with a country that doesn’t have electricity in most parts. And what little resources and infrastructure they have, it’s mostly used for their military.

So the problem is not just economics, North Koreans have almost zero understanding of reality. North koreans want to reunify, they do. But would they accept it under the conditions of the south. From our perspective of course, they would have a wayyyy better life. But after years of being under the regime, some of them might fight until the very end for the Kim dynasty the their supreme leader and forever president Kim il Sung. I’m betting many of them would not know what to even do after they topple the Kim regime, it’s all they have ever known. East Berlin at least has some idea of whats going on and has contact with the outside. North Korea has one channel and most have never met anyone outside of North Korea. So i do get the comparison, but there are major differences.

I’m under the IDK category I guess. I do hope for reunification being from a Korean family, but I do see the major problems. And I personally do not have to be in Korea if it happens so for me it’s hard to say.


Germany was separated about same time as Korea, around 1945 to 1950. They were brainwashed and a lot of it worked, but people kinda know what’s up. I think the North probably have an inkling of the brainwashing they’re being exposed to.

But you’re right, the situation is a bit more dire, because the North Korean government has embraced Juchae, which is a fiery kind of self-reliance, which is really pure, unadulterated Marxism, and they are proud of it. The Russians weren’t quite so purists, and now China has learned lessons from them both and dabble with capitalism to keep their communism from falling apart at the seams too fast. The North Koreans are not brainwashed to the point of being robots, they are people. They will learn fast and will absolutely embrace that freedom, which they yearn for even now.

I can’t imagine South Korea turning away their Northern brothers for such selfishness as you suggest and not share the fruits of freedom they’ve been allowed to enjoy at the cost of American and Korean blood. It’s not going to happen. They are compassionate and will gladly show their brothers what it is to enjoy a system that treats people like humans instead of slaves, to have desires and be able to work and achieve those dreams, to improve one’s lot in life.

Selfish yuppies who would prevent this kind of thing would be worse than the fat cats in the NK government enjoying the high-life while denying it to their citizens under them. So let me speak for your country, since you’re not doing a very good job of it. South Korea is NOT that kind of country, thank God. And I would be ashamed to admit that America was either. We enjoy liberty, and we enjoy seeing that liberty redound to others around us.


First of all, to everyone worrying about the absorption of refugees by the South, Rowland is right. China didn’t remove the borders with HK and Macau. It even created new internal borders for the SEZ’s like Shenzhen, though there’s little trace of those now.

Speaking of which…

This again? :wall: :wall: :wall:

I already explained it to you in the labor reform thread. If you don’t believe me, go there and see for yourself! There are serious developmental problems across the land, but your caricature is straight out of the 20th century.

Also, where does your interpretation of Juche – “pure, unadulterated Marxism” – come from?

Tl/dr: it’s a Korean ideology.

@Andrew0409, your numbers are little mixed up. The firm separation of Taiwan was in 1949, though it’s not completely straightforward (Japan and all that – 1895). Thirty years would mean, what, 1987?

Germany was divided no later than 1949 and unified no earlier than 1989 (technically 1990), so that makes 40 years, at least.

About the UK and Chinese refugees, I believe the idea Icon is refering to (unless she meant flood HK with refugees) is that if you enter the UK and promptly destroy your passport, whatever country the UK tries to deport you to can simply deny that you’re a citizen, so there’s a complex process to go through. As for refugees in HK back in the day, I think the process was a little different.

There was at least one major wave of mainlanders that swept across the HK border during the Cultural Revolution, but it wasn’t quite clear why they were crossing (as part of a plan or just because they wanted to, or both).

The argument that really made sense to the British, as I understand it, was that HK was not self-sufficient (uh-oh, sounds like Juche! :eek:), so China could simply cut off the food supply, and then the cost of maintaining the colony arguably would have outweighed the benefit of keeping it.


[quote=“Andrew0409, post:34, topic:158959, full:true”]
But when I listen to the north speak. It’s really difficult for me to even understand what they are speaking about sometimes.[/quote]

Same thing with “English” speakers from some regions of the UK. God help us if the CANZUK plan succeeds! :runaway:


First of all, belief in an afterlife does not determine whether or not people will engage in risky activities.

As for what they really believe, it’s not like it’s the easiest society in which to conduct opinion polls (that would meet western standards). And obviously, the article below does not reflect official dogma. But you’re crediting the regime with a far more powerful education system than any other communist country ever came up with, if it’s managed to eradicate all pre-revolutionary tendencies.

Even the official dogma isn’t quite what westerners think of as atheism. Iirc the earth trembles each time a Dear Leader is born or departs, and so on.


[quote=“yyy, post:46, topic:158959, full:true”]
This again? :wall: :wall: :wall:
I already explained it to you in the labor reform thread. If you don’t believe me, go there and see for yourself! There are serious developmental problems across the land, but your caricature is straight out of the 20th century.[/quote]


[quote=yyy]Also, where does your interpretation of Juche – “pure, unadulterated Marxism” – come from?

Tl/dr: it’s a Korean ideology.[/quote]

Basically, it denies trade, everything must be produced in the country. This is also Marx. This is also Mao. Then Deng and others liberalized trade and liberalized entrepreneurship in China post-Mao, which allowed business ownership and profit-making capitalism, so they wouldn’t remain so stagnant. Socialism doesn’t create money. Pure socialism must depend on the accumulated capital of historical capitalism before they run out. That explains the fall of the Soviet Union.


I’m not making a case for any of these ideologies. I’m telling you your claim that one is absolutely identical to another is not true.

You might as well say Democrats and Republicans are the identical because they both (at least claim to) support capitalism.

(I don’t have time to read your China articles atm, so I don’t know if you’re suddenly agreeing with me or not.)


Yes, looks like Trump’s Syrian warning has taken effect. Now for the first time, China has warned the North and vowed to use military might to stop them, says their own communist newspaper:

“China has a bottom line that it will protect at all costs, that is, the security and stability of northeast China… If the bottom line is touched, China will employ all means available including the military means to strike back. By that time, it is not an issue of discussion whether China acquiesces in the US’ blows, but the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) will launch attacks to DPRK nuclear facilities on its own."


I’m not saying they are exactly the same. What I’m saying is that they are exactly the same as regards to self-reliance dictating that everything be produced domestically, which is also Marxism. What separates Juchae from Marxism has its points, but isn’t important here.


In other news, South Korean media claims Navy Seals are training to assassinate Kim Jong Un.

The U.S. Navy’s Special Warfare Development Group, better known as the SEAL Team 6, will arrive in South Korea soon for joint military drills and take part in an exercise simulating the removal of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un, according to the Ministry of National Defense Monday


Is that a credible source? I have no idea about media outlets from Korea (both of them).
Apparently they’re moving 600000 poor people away from the capital, to make space for rich people (well, those few left) and people loyal to the regime in suburbs that have been recently renewed.

Pretty much this.


Reminds me of a documentary I saw about North Korea. A group of Western doctors was brought in to perform cataract surgery on a group of poor peasants, and when their bandages were removed and they could see again, the first thing they did was start crying tears of joy, bowing to a picture of Kim Jong-il on the wall and thanking him for restoring their eyesight. The Western doctors just stood there in disbelief. Were they really that brainwashed, or did they just know which side their bread was buttered on. Does it even matter?


No idea. But wouldn’t be surprised if Trump is going that route.


Psyops, surely. Pretending you’re going to assassinate someone has a much more predictable outcome than actually assassinating him, IMO. Plus, it’s not technically illegal.

Fascinating that Chinese and US interests are starting to converge on this issue. I hope Trump doesn’t fuck it up with his anti-Chinese blather.

Anyway, it’s about time someone gave Mr Stay Puft a jolly good spanking, nasty spoiled little brat that he is. The existence of NK is a disgrace to the human race. Hopefully it can be sorted out with the minimum of violence.

I would say there’s no difference. It’s incredibly easy to convince people of all sorts of nonsense, because ultimately people act and think in ways that are congruent. It’s impossible for someone to act in ways that conflict with his thoughts. Therefore, if you force someone to act in certain ways, his thoughts will align to justify those actions.


So I read your BI and Cato articles, and you… do agree with me? :doh: I was looking forward to more nonsense! Oh well. :idunno:

I’m not saying they are exactly the same. What I’m saying is that they are exactly the same as regards to self-reliance dictating that everything be produced domestically, which is also Marxism. What separates Juchae from Marxism has its points, but isn’t important here.

Oh, I see what you mean. Self-reliance is pure Marxism, and Juche is self-reliance. I can think of other things that are self-reliance: the Protestant work ethic, the Boy Scout motto, anarchism…

That’s the trouble with reductionism. It destroys meaning, as Orwell tried to explain to you.


You’re just playing rhetoric games. I said producing everything domestically.


[quote=“jotham, post:59, topic:158959, full:true”]
You’re just playing rhetoric games.[/quote]


That’s not what you said originally, though perhaps it’s what you meant.

I wish you a pleasant evening. :bowing: