ABC in Taiwan on ROC passport: no household registration = never subject to the draft?

Legal Dual Nationality
1

Let’s test my understanding here, before I give the bureaucrats a call:

Assumption 1: It is impossible to be drafted without having ever established household registration. Therefore, contrary to what is often repeated in this forum, the one year period adult overseas born Taiwanese typically need to stay in Taiwan in order to get an ID does not count towards the “183 days for two calendar years” limit that causes someone with overseas Chinese status to be subject to the draft. The clock starts ticking only after you establish household registration for the first time. If you were born before 1985, and have never established household registration, there is no need for you to leave Taiwan every 4 months - the rule doesn’t apply to you. (immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 11&mp=T002 “Conscription is of no concern to those who have never had household registration in Taiwan.”)

Assumption 2: There is no requirement that a ROC national in Taiwan has to establish household registration. That is, one can enter on the overseas ROC passport and indefinitely stay in the ROC on a Taiwan Area Resident Card (TARC), without the need to establish household registration and exchange this TARC for a National ID Card.

Based on these assumptions, it is possible for a overseas-born male to stay in Taiwan on a ROC passport, qualify for the ID in the meantime, and never be subject to the draft. Am I correct?

I’m an ABC and one of my parents has an ID/household registration in Taiwan. I have never held a ROC passport. Here would be the plan (immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 2247&mp=13):

  1. apply for ROC passport and entry permit (入境許可) at TECO
  2. enter Taiwan and apply for a TARC (台灣地區居留證) with the NIA
  3. satisfy the requirement of staying continuously for one year or 270 days for two years

wait until age 36

  1. apply for residency (申請定居) with the NIA (application form here: immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 1947&mp=12)
  2. establish household registration (設戶籍) with the local household registration office
  3. apply for a National ID Card.

Now is there any requirement that step 4 be done within a certain time limit from the time step 3 is completed? For example, could I work in Taiwan for a couple years, qualifying for the one continuous year or 270 days for two years requirement, move somewhere else, and then come back once I’m aged to 36 to complete steps 4-6?

2

[quote=“gnaij”]Let’s test my understanding here, before I give the bureaucrats a call:

Assumption 2: There is no requirement that a ROC national in Taiwan has to establish household registration. That is, one can enter on the overseas ROC passport and indefinitely stay in the ROC on a Taiwan Area Resident Card (TARC), without the need to establish household registration and exchange this TARC for a National ID Card.

Based on these assumptions, it is possible for a overseas-born male to stay in Taiwan on a ROC passport, qualify for the ID in the meantime, and never be subject to the draft. Am I correct?

I’m an ABC and one of my parents has an ID/household registration in Taiwan. I have never held a ROC passport. Here would be the plan (immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 2247&mp=13):

  1. apply for ROC passport and entry permit (入境許可) at TECO
  2. enter Taiwan and apply for a TARC (台灣地區居留證) with the NIA
  3. satisfy the requirement of staying continuously for one year or 270 days for two years

wait until age 36

  1. apply for residency (申請定居) with the NIA (application form here: immigration.gov.tw/ct.asp?xI … 1947&mp=12)
  2. establish household registration (設戶籍) with the local household registration office
  3. apply for a National ID Card.

Now is there any requirement that step 4 be done within a certain time limit from the time step 3 is completed? For example, could I work in Taiwan for a couple years, qualifying for the one continuous year or 270 days for two years requirement, move somewhere else, and then come back once I’m aged to 36 to complete steps 4-6?[/quote]

Yes my son has a Taiwan passport but no ID card even though he was born here. He gets a visa to enter and stays on that but cannot legally work. He canot get a TARC as he is eligible to directly register on my Hukou though the MOI.

As long as you have no Hukou and ID card you cannot be drafted. Not sure if you can get a TARC though. If your mom is Taiwanese and your father not then you would be in same situation as my son. First you need to see if you can get a TARC as overseas passport with no ID card you need a visa and cannot work.

3

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Yes my son has a Taiwan passport but no ID card even though he was born here. He gets a visa to enter and stays on that but cannot legally work. He canot get a TARC as he is eligible to directly register on my Hukou though the MOI.

As long as you have no Hukou and ID card you cannot be drafted. Not sure if you can get a TARC though. If your mom is Taiwanese and your father not then you would be in same situation as my son. First you need to see if you can get a TARC as overseas passport with no ID card you need a visa and cannot work.[/quote]

I’m not sure if I caught how having one parent who’s not Taiwanese affects the situation. As far as nationality is concerned, anyone born after 1980 is a national if either parent is a national, and in applying for and extending the entry permit, they would look for lineal relatives for either parent with household registration.

So they said since your son qualifies for household registration, they won’t issue a TARC to him? In my case, the possibility is that once I hit the one continuous year / two years with 270 days each / five years with 183 days each mark, NIA will refuse to renew my TARC and ask me to apply for household registration instead. That is something I would want to refrain from doing if I were to be regularly employed/resident in Taiwan, at least until I reach the June before my 35th birthday. But if that happened, I suppose I could just use my US passport to get an employer-sponsored ARC instead.

I presume that even with a TARC I would need a work permit in order to undertake employment? Or do TARCs function in any way like an APRC? Would there be any practical difference to having an employer sponsor a work permit on my (ID-less overseas-stamped) ROC passport, as opposed to my US passport? I think unregistered ROC nationals are taxed the same as foreigners.

4

I had a TARC before I got my ID card, You do not not a work permit with a TARC and your employer does not sponsor you for a work permit. I was taxed the same as any other ROC national because thats what you are even with a TARC.

When my son was born here in 1991 ROC Nationality was not granted to children born to fathers with no ROC Nationality, so he lived here on a dependent ARC until he was 20 as they expire when the kids turn 20. He was then in Australia and got a Taiwan passport as he was born here and was eligible under new rules to get a Taiwan passport and then register if he wants on my Hulou to get his ID card. He does not need to live here for 12 months first on a TARC to get an ID card.

5

The Employment Services Act states that stateless persons and unregistered nationals with another nationality are treated the same as foreigners under the Act. (無國籍人、中華民國國民兼具外國國籍而未在國內設籍者，其受聘僱從事工作，依本法有關外國人之規定辦理。http://laws.cla.gov.tw/Chi/FLAW/FLAWDAT0201.asp) I suppose that since you renounced your former nationality, you did not fall under one of these categories.

The “wait time” for unregistered nationals in Taiwan to work or study versus those joining lineal relatives in Taiwan is longer: 3 continuous years, 5 years with 270 days each, or 7 years with 183 days each. But don’t they permit only one reason on the application? So here would be the problem: if I said I was joining relatives, then I would not be able to work, but if stated that if I were in Taiwan to work, I would have to wait a longer period of time in order to qualify for household registration.

The law also says to apply for household registration within two years after qualifying for it. I wonder what is the penalty for not doing this. (申請定居，除第一項第一款但書規定情形外，應於連續居留或居留滿一定期間後二年內申請之。入出國及移民法-全國法規資料庫)

6

Having a TARC means you are a registered national and therefor have work rights.

7

[quote=“gnaij”]
I’m an ABC and one of my parents has an ID/household registration in Taiwan. [/quote]

Just a bit of additional information about this particular comment of yours in qualifying for a Taiwan ID. I was told by the MOI that the (non-Taiwan national) spouse of the Taiwan national must be registered on the hukou of the Taiwan national for their children to qualify for a Taiwan ID. For example, if your mother is a Taiwan national and your father is not, he must be registered in your mother’s hukou.

The MOI’s explanation was this (in conjunction with a birth certificate) is the only way to confirm that the couple’s marriage is legally recognized in Taiwan and that they are the child’s legal parents.

8

“Registered nationals” (有戶籍國民) by definition have household registration. Anyone aged 14 and above with household registration is required to hold an ID Card.

The TARC is a substitute identity document - anyone possessing a TARC does not have an ID Card, and so is at the same time an “unregistered national” (無戶籍國民). Likewise, anyone with an ARC does not have an ID Card. The main difference between the TARC and an ARC is whether the holder of the card came in on a foreign passport or an ROC passport.

At least this is my understanding from reading the related laws and regulations these past few days.

[quote=“Invisimind”]
Just a bit of additional information about this particular comment of yours in qualifying for a Taiwan ID. I was told by the MOI that the (non-Taiwan national) spouse of the Taiwan national must be registered on the hukou of the Taiwan national for their children to qualify for a Taiwan ID. For example, if your mother is a Taiwan national and your father is not, he must be registered in your mother’s hukou.[/quote]

Yep, this has been done already. When applying for the passport, did TECO want to see the marriage certificate too, or would having both parents’ names on mother’s ID card be good enough?

9

Yes, if both of your parents’ names are on your mother’s ID card, you should be set for this requirement.

10

Well thats means having translated the foreign parents name into Chinese.

That would also need to appear on the household registration with the native name in English characters.
Otherwise the name on the ID card has no replationship to the actual parent as English names cannot fit on the ID card.

11

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Well thats means hvaing translated the foreign parents name into Chinese.

That would also need to appear on the household registration with the native name in English characters.
Otherwise the name on the ID card has no replationship to the actual parent as English names cannot fit on the ID card.[/quote]

Yes, what you’ve stated is true. Based on the few similar situations that I am aware of, the translation of the foreign name came first. Then, the original marriage certificate and a Chinese version of the marriage certificate (with the names translated into Chinese) were submitted to the household registration office, where the household registration was updated, and at the same time the ID (of the Taiwanese parent) was updated with the name of the non-Taiwanese spouse.

Therefore, the OP should already have the necessary paperwork that was required to get his non-Taiwanese parent’s name on the Taiwanese parent’s ID card.

When the OP submits his paperwork, his TECO validated birth certificate (in the original language) and a Chinese translation will be required. The Chinese version of the birth certificate should have the parents’ Chinese names, which should match the names on the Taiwanese parent’s ID card.

Gnaij take what you read here as experiences by others who want to help make the process smoother for those who are in similar situations. I’m sure that you have plans to confer with the de facto experts at MOI, because their list of requirements is the only one that matters.

We’ve meandered away from your original question about the draft, but hopefully you’ve found the answer to it.

Best of luck with this process

12

In my sons Taiwan passport. no ID card number. A 3 year multiple entry visa with period of stay for 3 months which can be extended. However he cannot apply for TARC as he can get his ID card by registering thorugh the MOI onto my Hukou and then get his ID card from Household Registry.

No ID Card number no military service. But as he is at university in Australia not really an issue as they don’t draft full time university students anyway.

13

In the news: udn.com/NEWS/SPORTS/SPOS9/6906363.shtml

“按現行兵役法相關規定，林書豪若持中華民國護照入境、滯台超過一百八十三天，就算在國內無戶籍，也會收到兵役徵集通知。” [" Under the Conscription Law, if Jeremy Lin uses his Republic of China to enter Taiwan, and stays for over 183 days, he will receive his draft notice, even if he does not have household registration."]

I found this in multiple news articles. Am I wrong, or is the MOFA spokesman wrong? I believe (1) it’s not possible to be drafted without ever having held household registration and (2) it’s possible to be drafted without currently holding household registration but having held household registration in the past. But how do they serve the draft notice to those in (2)?

14

[quote=“gnaij”]In the news: udn.com/NEWS/SPORTS/SPOS9/6906363.shtml

“按現行兵役法相關規定，林書豪若持中華民國護照入境、滯台超過一百八十三天，就算在國內無戶籍，也會收到兵役徵集通知。” [" Under the Conscription Law, if Jeremy Lin uses his Republic of China to enter Taiwan, and stays for over 183 days, he will receive his draft notice, even if he does not have household registration."]

I found this in multiple news articles. Am I wrong, or is the MOFA spokesman wrong? I believe (1) it’s not possible to be drafted without ever having held household registration and (2) it’s possible to be drafted without currently holding household registration but having held household registration in the past. But how do they serve the draft notice to those in (2)?[/quote]

If you have overseas chinese, you are eligible for draft regardless of household registration status. Even Jeremy enters on his US passport, he’s still eligible for the draft. I doubt the NBA all star would be spending much time in Taiwan anyway, dunno why MOFA is coming out and saying this shit out of the blue :eh:

Most overseas chinese that I know have household registration in the past or ID cards… Since if they never had (like me), they’d most likely get the 3 month entry permit without draft issues.

Edit: ok so Lin never ever had a Taiwanese passport, which means most possibly he does not have household registration or an ID card. If he does get a Taiwanese passport he will not be subject to a draft UNLESS he gets an ID card or household registration, His situation will be exactly the same as mine, 3 month entry permit valid for 3 years.

15

When I was at the Conscription desk at the local govement desk 3 years ago, there was a guy:

  1. who was an American/Taiwanese with dual passports
  2. who was working in Taiwan using his US passport
  3. who thought he would not be drafted due to him using his US passport, so he did not leave once every 4 months → So he overstayed
  4. who was somehow found out by the Conscription services and still drafted.

I think you need to be very careful even if you have no hu-kou or ID card. Better to ask some bureacucrat who knows the laws. If I were you, I would still leave every 4 months (assuming you are born before 1983).

16

[quote=“cyborg_ninja”][quote=“gnaij”]In the news: udn.com/NEWS/SPORTS/SPOS9/6906363.shtml

“按現行兵役法相關規定，林書豪若持中華民國護照入境、滯台超過一百八十三天，就算在國內無戶籍，也會收到兵役徵集通知。” [" Under the Conscription Law, if Jeremy Lin uses his Republic of China to enter Taiwan, and stays for over 183 days, he will receive his draft notice, even if he does not have household registration."]

I found this in multiple news articles. Am I wrong, or is the MOFA spokesman wrong? I believe (1) it’s not possible to be drafted without ever having held household registration and (2) it’s possible to be drafted without currently holding household registration but having held household registration in the past. But how do they serve the draft notice to those in (2)?[/quote]

If you have overseas chinese, you are eligible for draft regardless of household registration status. Even Jeremy enters on his US passport, he’s still eligible for the draft. I doubt the NBA all star would be spending much time in Taiwan anyway, dunno why MOFA is coming out and saying this shit out of the blue :eh:

Most overseas chinese that I know have household registration in the past or ID cards… Since if they never had (like me), they’d most likely get the 3 month entry permit without draft issues.

Edit: ok so Lin never ever had a Taiwanese passport, which means most possibly he does not have household registration or an ID card. If he does get a Taiwanese passport he will not be subject to a draft UNLESS he gets an ID card or household registration, His situation will be exactly the same as mine, 3 month entry permit valid for 3 years.[/quote]
Indeed, especially seeing as Jeremy Lin
IS NOT
Taiwanese. He is a born, bred and corn fed, true blue, 100% American FFS!
If he came here, he would come on a US passport.

17

[quote=“bismarck”]
Indeed, especially seeing as Jeremy Lin
IS NOT
Taiwanese. He is a born, bred and corn fed, true blue, 100% American FFS!
If he came here, he would come on a US passport.[/quote]

I’ve posed a legal question, not a sociological question. What nationality Jeremy Lin considers himself is irrelevant in the eyes of the law. There are plenty of people who are dual nationals without knowing or exercising it.

Taiwan has a lax policy on dual nationality. If it were the other way around - Jeremy Lin is born in Taiwan to the same parents, but decides to enter the US on a ROC passport having never lived in the US and having a poor command of the English language - he would be committing a criminal offense as a US citizen attempting to use a foreign passport to enter the United States.

The practical relevance of all this is that Lin could play for the Chinese Taipei basketball team.

18

[quote=“gnaij”][quote=“bismarck”]
Indeed, especially seeing as Jeremy Lin
IS NOT
Taiwanese. He is a born, bred and corn fed, true blue, 100% American FFS!
If he came here, he would come on a US passport.[/quote]

I’ve posed a legal question, not a sociological question. What nationality Jeremy Lin considers himself is irrelevant in the eyes of the law. There are plenty of people who are dual nationals without knowing or exercising it.

Taiwan has a lax policy on dual nationality. If it were the other way around - Jeremy Lin is born in Taiwan to the same parents, but decides to enter the US on a ROC passport having never lived in the US and having a poor command of the English language - he would be committing a criminal offense as a US citizen attempting to use a foreign passport to enter the United States.

The practical relevance of all this is that Lin could play for the Chinese Taipei basketball team.[/quote]
Pffft! And he would, why?

I’d love some of what you’ve been smoking. Dream on.

With immigration laws the way they are he could play for the national team of just about any country in the world. He has expressed wanting to play for the Chinese national team (PRC, NOT ROC, which has somehow managed to escape the notice of the rabid local fans…), but I’ll bet you anything you want that if he has to choose between the US national team and anyone else, he would choose the Dream Team any day of the week and five times on Sunday.
So you can wax lyrical all you want on who he could theoretically play for, but he’ll always be 100% American, American only and he will in all probability go on to represent the US and no other country.

But whatever, ABC dream shmeam all you want. :unamused:

Edit:

What you mean is, is that Taiwan has a somewhat racist immigration policy for so-called “overseas Chinese” and any old bugger that can lay even the slimmest claim to Chinese ethnicity. At least Jeremy has Taiwanese parents, so in this instance it’s ok.
And for what it’s worth, the law is the law, and I support it until we can get it changed, and I’m hoping we will sooner rather than later. But personally, I find the entire ABC/CBC moniker distasteful. If these guys want to come here and get our ID Card and passport, do national service, stop whining or stay where your forefathers decided to run off to.
Personally I think they all belong in the same category as any other foreigner, and if they wish to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, an ID card or even just a passport, they should fall under the same regulations as anyone else, including having to renounce their original citizenship. Then we’ll see how many of the fair weather so-called “overseas Chinese” who qualify for a passport and/or TARC would be willing to apply.

19

I agree with you that he would prefer Team USA over any other team in the world. But that’s not my point. If he were to play for Team Chinese Taipei, he would not have to give up any legal rights. If he were to play for Team China, he would have to renounce his US citizenship and naturalize as a Chinese national. Under Article 5 of PRC Nationality Law he does not already possess Chinese nationality - he would have to obtain as any other foreigner. I’m pretty sure he would not want to do that just to play on their Olympic team, though is he sucked enough to not make it to Team USA he could very well play for Team Chinese Taipei.

[quote=“bismarck”]
What you mean is, is that Taiwan has a somewhat racist immigration policy for so-called “overseas Chinese” and any old bugger that can lay even the slimmest claim to Chinese ethnicity. At least Jeremy has Taiwanese parents, so in this instance it’s ok.
And for what it’s worth, the law is the law, and I support it until we can get it changed, and I’m hoping we will sooner rather than later. But personally, I find the entire ABC/CBC moniker distasteful. If these guys want to come here and get our ID Card and passport, do national service, stop whining or stay where your forefathers decided to run off to.
Personally I think they all belong in the same category as any other foreigner, and if they wish to apply for Taiwanese citizenship, an ID card or even just a passport, they should fall under the same regulations as anyone else, including having to renounce their original citizenship. Then we’ll see how many of the fair weather so-called “overseas Chinese” who qualify for a passport and/or TARC would be willing to apply.[/quote]

Taiwan nationality law ceased being racist in 2002. Until 2002, anyone of Chinese ethnicity could obtain a certificate of Overseas Chinese status and use that to obtain a ROC passport. From 2002, it is no longer possible to obtain a ROC passport with a certificate of Overseas Chinese status. Only people born to parents who have ROC passports or born within the official borders of the Republic of China can obtain new ROC passports.

Are you arguing that jus sanguinus is racist? Every country in the world recognizes some form of jus sanguinus (citizenship by descent), so every country must be racist! Some countries like the PRC do not extend jus sanguinus to anyone who has obtained a foreign nationality at birth abroad to parent permanently settled abroad; others like Japan force those who obtained dual nationality at birth to pick a nationality upon reaching a certain age. At the far end of the spectrum are countries like Canada, the USA, UK, and France, which extend jus sanguinus generally, even if foreign nationality is obtained by birth abroad, but impose some limitations on the number of generations jus sanguinus can extend. By permitting dual nationality obtained at birth via jus sanguinus, Taiwan’s nationality law is on par with most Western countries.

The “abnormality” in Taiwan law when compared to most Western countries is the differentiation into registered nationals and [wikipedia]unregistered nationals[/wikipedia]. If anything needs to change, it is that overseas born children of Taiwanese people should be able to exercise the same citizenship rights as those born and bred in Taiwan. This is somewhat the case - but the requirement is that household registration for these overseas born Taiwanese must be established by age 14, or they become unregistered nationals having to fulfill certain residency requirements to get an ID card. Nationality and citizenship rights should be directly linked - they need to remove household registration as a prerequisite for exercising citizenship rights. Existing law is not unlike British nationality law and its treatment of colonial subjects.

20

Right? Right?? Who wouldn’t want to play with Kobe and the lads??

In terms of Jeremy Lin, I should bloody well hope not. Like you, he’s Taiwanese by descent (if he should wish to take advantage of that, like you are trying to do, and more power to you), NOT Chinese, and therefore a foreigner in China. Amen to that!!

Indeed. But one wonders what the repercussions of such a move would be, in terms of conscription etc. Would they attempt to draft such a high profile person, or would he somehow be given a pass or allowed to do some other form of service? I’m guessing someone of that stature would either get a pass or do alternative service.

I was not aware of that. I thought the pre-2002 situation still existed. In that case, I am very very pleased, and apologise for the misconception. However, being born in Taiwan doesn’t automatically result in citizenship or nationality. One or both parents need to be Taiwanese citizens at the time of the child’s birth. I state this confidently, because I know of several foreign families who have had and raised kids here, and their kids are all on ARCs.

Nope. That was my mistake in terms of still thinking the pre-2002 situation existed whereby anyone with a slim claim of “Chinese” ethnicity was eligible. Piesay for the misunderstanding.
For the record, I do support citizenship by descent, at least until grand parents level. After that, bugger that.

I agree with that/ Otherwise you would be having basically the same situation where someone who’s great grandfather left Taiwan more than a 100 years ago laying claim to citizenship. That’s pretty much BS IMVHO.

Yeah, granted, that’s a bit odd.

Agreed, but then they should also have to follow the same obligations as persons born and bred here should they wish to make a living here for any length of time.

Indeed, but I wonder if conscription isn’t the major reason behind this. Not sure if it is or isn’t, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it is the case. This may change after conscription ends, or maybe not, because another factor may be voting rights. And personally, I have a bit of a problem with that too. I’m a big believer in “no taxation without representation” and vice versa. I know most won’t agree with me, but I think no resident and non tax paying nationals/citizens shouldn’t be allowed to vote. Why? Because it’s easy to sell us down the river to China whilst comfortably sitting in your living room in the US, Canada or Aussie. I remember how all the non resident, non tax paying runners to NA came back in 2008 to vote for Ma and the KMT, only to get back on a plane and back to their lives in N after the elections ended. They should have no say in our future IMO.

Anyway, more on topic, how is your situation unfolding so far? Any headway?