Acquisition or learning, comprehensible input or correction?

This I agree with. And this:

But not this:

[quote=“ironlady”]Rule application is probably the greatest destroyer of fluency. You can know thousands of words, but if you have to stop and search for how to express the comparative, or consciously use a rule to change your verb so that “he is doing it” rather than “they are doing it”, it will stop your speech dead in its tracks.

Only if they are in a situation where editing is possible and advisable (they know the rule, there is time to apply it, they realize it needs to be applied). In speech, this is usually not practical. Calling on students to consciously apply rules produces the “look up, think of the rule, whisper it to yourself to see how it sounds, then hesitantly make the sentence” kind of output seen so frequently in English classes. [/quote]
If the students know the rule, can tell it to you when asked, can self-correct when challenged, but are repeating the same thing they have always said, in defiance of the rule, and they’re coming to class twice a week with no likelihood of them ever doing homework, talking AT them isn’t going to change their habits very quickly.

As with bob’s example, adult students don’t need to be ‘taught’, they need to be reminded of what they already know but are not using. Being reminded of the existence of grammar is often enough to make them do things differently, and they can get into the habit of remembering to use what they know through repetition.

If they start a class answering “nothing special” to the question “how’s it going?” and a month or two later they’re replying that IT is going well, then they’re making progress. The pauses get shorter as they get used to this new way of doing things, fluency increases, and they stop giving standard answers that are basically a cop-out. They get into the habit of replying automatically in the appropriate way, and the speech just falls out…

I think we’re saying the same things in different ways here. Your post to Dangergyrl in the other thread is pretty much exactly what I mean, simply that you have to focus down on the key stuff and keep on repeating it until it sticks.

I don’t need much convincing ironlady, I can see the merit in your approach. And I like Bob’s application of it, also. I’m not sure what place to make for direct instruction, however. Now, that I’ve been forced to think about it a little harder, I realize what I really have in mind is making the students aware - in real-time - of what is correct/incorrect. In my mind that involved making them conscious of mistakes they were making. I’d still hold to something of the NLP model of unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence with an intermediate stage of conscious incompetence/competence. We’ll see how it all works out in the classroom. How about a workshop, or two?

By the way, the Nation and Newton book is very practical, but it won’t surprize you that they admit to having no actual data on which to base their recommendation for an equal weighting for all four strands - just that it seems to work.

Anyway, really great thread/s Got me thinking and given me some excellent suggestions.

[quote=“Loretta”]
If the students know the rule, can tell it to you when asked, can self-correct when challenged, but are repeating the same thing they have always said, in defiance of the rule, and they’re coming to class twice a week with no likelihood of them ever doing homework, talking AT them isn’t going to change their habits very quickly.[/quote]

Things don’t always happen quickly in language acquisition. That’s the main problem with the traditional model of language teaching. It believes that we teach a unit (say, how to form and use the simple past tense, or something), they practice it, they have “learned” it, and they take a test. They score fairly well on the test. So! They “know” that now. But knowing isn’t acquiring. It’s knowing about a language. It’s linguistics, really. I can tell you how to incorporate nouns in Mohawk (the rules for it), but I sure as heck can’t do it in real life, which was rather disappointing to our teachers, who thought that should “do it”.

We truly do disagree on this part, Loretta. It’s not about what they know. It’s about what is actually in their brains, acquired. I would ten times rather have a student who uses tenses correctly but cannot tell me why, than I would have one who can list the rules for using tenses in English but can’t do it in a conversation. The first student has acquired the tenses; the second has learned about them.

Repetition builds acquisition. Being reminded of grammar rules switches on the “edit” switch, and they start applying rules. That’s fine if they need to output immediately, and there’s no time to wait and be patient for acquisition to take place (it doesn’t happen that quickly for many features of language). But for long-term gain, it won’t stick for the majority of people. We see this all the time in Taiwan. Surely students have been reminded frequently of the importance of grammar in Taiwan, of all places! :smiley:

[quote]
I think we’re saying the same things in different ways here. Your post to Dangergyrl in the other thread is pretty much exactly what I mean, simply that you have to focus down on the key stuff and keep on repeating it until it sticks.[/quote]

I’d love to say we are saying the same thing in a different way, but I think we aren’t. Yes, we both agree to focus on the basics and keep repeating them. The difference is in HOW that repetition should take place. Non-CI teachers feel that repetition takes place most effectively with students outputting language. If they can’t perform it correctly, they believe, they can’t learn it long-term. Most non-CI teachers I know believe that repeating something three or four times is enough to “model” it, after which it’s time for the students to “get to work” and apply that rule in their own speech or writing.

CI teachers, on the other hand, feel that student output is not an effective means to help students acquire the language feature we’re working on at the moment. Instead, we stress more and more comprehensible input that includes that feature. When there’s been enough repetition of that feature in unpredictable contexts with comprehension occurring, the brain of each student will (at its own pace, inconveniently for classroom teachers!) make the connection and that bit of grammar will be acquired and available for unconscious use.

But I think we can agree that a huge, enormous problem in Taiwan is the insistence of simply passing students regardless of their actual achievement in terms of being able to understand or express themselves in the language. After ten or so years of just hanging on by the skin of their teeth – or using the time-honored cooperative methods of having someone “good at” English do their homework or whatever – they are so far behind, and their bad habits so cemented, that it is difficult to remedy. If correct input is only 1/5000 of their English experience, no wonder they’re speaking incorrectly. And if any English input is only 1/1000 of their English seat-time, no wonder they’re not acquiring.

Another thing that works pretty well in making students error aware without ruining fluency is to have them right out dialogues. If you have three students together and it is a low to mid level class then writing out a dialogue is very helpful for error awareness.

When using this “error awareness” phrase people should be clear I think that what we need to help students with is ingbe aware “that they are making mistakes” rather than focusing on what those mistakes are. They should feel comfortable with being corrected and be ready to practice the natural pattern.

Last year I had a super keen student who really did know the grammar, ie. he didn’t just think he knew because he had attended a lot of grammar classes that he didn’t really understand. He really knew his stuff.

Still his English was FILLED with mistakes precisely because nobody corrected him (he spoke English about four hours every day at work - high level stuff too) and put him through some simple drills.

Bob, you are simply drawing conclusions that cannot be drawn. Unless you can isolate different variables you cannot draw such a conclusion. If one wanted to test your theory, one would have to test the guy over time by predetermining which mistakes to make direct corrections and which one’s he would receive direct input by listening to those grammar mistakes correctly in context. After say six months, then a test would be designed to see which method was more effective in correcting his English. There is no way of knowing whether correcting him everyday would have resulted in your student speaking correct English. Actually plenty of anecdotal evidence and there may even be some research that someone can point out that correcting someone often doesn’t change the language they use.

And how is practicing the pattern going to help them acquire it? It’s output. Bob, bob, bob…didn’t I teach you better than that? :smiley:

[quote]Last year I had a super keen student who really did know the grammar, ie. he didn’t just think he knew because he had attended a lot of grammar classes that he didn’t really understand. He really knew his stuff.

Still his English was FILLED with mistakes precisely because nobody corrected him (he spoke English about four hours every day at work - high level stuff too) and put him through some simple drills.[/quote]

Yep, he really [color=#FF0040]knew[/color] his stuff. Unfortunately, he hadn’t [color=#FF4040]acquired[/color] that grammar for unconscious use. People who haven’t worked with input-based instruction seem to believe that CI teachers are just being pedantic or something when we draw such a rigid distinction between learning and acquisition, but it’s the core of the language education problem these days. Most of what goes on in a traditional classroom are activities that lead to learning about a language – memorizing the rules, memorizing the vocabulary, using them to produce sentences, often with some sort of scaffolding to help. Those things lead to short-term learning and the response so common in the United States: “I had Spanish (French, German…) in high school, but I can’t remember a word now.”

Errors in this kind of student happen because the student did not get enough input of the correct forms linked to the correct meaning, so that he could acquire the structure of the language. It’s not something correction will fix, or we would all be perfect speakers of everything, considering how many times things have been corrected for all of us.

In writing, I’d choose the error that drives me the most bathouse – one error at a time – and point it out to the student, then assign something for him to write that would likely have that feature in it a few times (or tell him to write something and include it as many times as possible, trying to use it correctly). The grade then becomes linked only to that particular feature of the writing. But writing is a place where editing is appropriate, as it is not real-time language output. The point with writing is to get an accurate final product above all else, and it’s okay to take extra time while the product is being produced (in fact, people encourage it, even for native speakers writing things.) Speech needs accuracy to be understood correctly, but it’s not okay to take extra time while speaking to apply rules consciously, so we have to make sure the students acquire the patterns and the active vocabulary so they do not need to stop and edit while speaking.

This guy had definitely had had alot of input, just not input that was structured to correct the output he was generating. At some point they definitely need someone to help them specifically with the output they are coming up with. He had been admited into a top notch university in the states to work towards a masters degree in marketing. He needed to be able to talk. I would assign movies to him and he would go read the Imbd write up, watch the movie, and come back really ready to have it out (my style tends to be a bit confrontational) in terms of what the films were “about.” For a non-native speaker that is functioning at a pretty high level. Lots of times he would clue into things that I had missed. His understanding was fantastic. He knew what the words were and he knew what they meant. What he couldn’t do was produce grammatically correct sentences fluently and consistently. I mean that was about all there was left to work on. What we finally settled on in terms of learning style was conversation and friendly debate (flat out argument sometimes honestly) and when I noticed something off a couple of times I would flip on the tape recorder and record the same sentence spoken correctly. VERY rarely did I need to explain anything because that was about all he needed in terms of error awareness. I would substitute words in or expand on it or pose it as a question or manipulate the sentence in some way while trying to retain the structure of the original element that needed to be corrected. That was the basic plan. I’d often have him repeat some form of the sentence, if it seemed like a high frequency collocation, until he could pronounce it with a precisely native lilt. Completely connected, completly reduced.

I am not an academic obviously but I can tell you that he was absolutely THRILLED with the class, believing it to be just what he needed. I also know that he went on to do very well in a speech competition (not neccesarily means much.)

(If I don’t respond here it is probably because I am resting my back. This conversation is definitely interesting to me. Particular thanks to ironlady, of course)

How do people here generally handle your confrontational approach? It sounds fantastic to me, but I should imagine the prospect of an argument would scare the crap out of most people (especially here).

First of all, love this thread, so nice to hear other people’s takes on teaching issues that I’ve been stewing about alone for 2 years. Reading this has given me validation for some of my teaching techniques that I’ve had to defend in the past, and made me re-think many things that I’ve been doing in the classroom.
A question for IronLady- can you give me a run-down of a typical two hour class? I’m hearing ‘input’ a lot but god I think if I talked non-stop for two hours my head would freaking explode. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean by input. I want to understand- it sounds like you know what you’re talking about.
Also- can anybody give me any tips on good reading materials for high-intermediate to advanced students? Here’s the problem I’m running into- My students are reading magazines/newspaper articles, and they can understand them pretty well. But then they turn around and try to WRITE IN THE SAME STYLE which leads to garbled sentences. Can anyone point me to a high-quality, interesting publication that won’t lead my students astray when they try to mimic writing?

As far as the CI debate- I think the problem is that the typical student attends maybe 2-3 hours of English class per week. Given that most students are battling fatigue, hunger, and other distractions, they’re probably only focusing for an hour of that time (seems I remember a study being done that showed students are really only ‘on’ in class about 20% of the time, so I’m being generous here). Is this really enough time to truly acquire a language? If not, and they have to spend time exposing themselves to the language outside of class in order to acquire it, what can we teachers do IN class to make sure that we’re worth the money they’re paying- ie, if I’m just talking, couldn’t the student just listen to movies, cd’s etc?
Okay, it’s late, I’m not being clear here- let’s put it this way- say CLASS is only 50% of the students total English time. Say they also spend 2-3 hours per week listening to cd’s, reading etc. Then class requires more than 5% of the time on actual instruction (90-10 rule applies- 50% out of class time is listening/reading English (would that be considered semi-comprehensible input?). Class, the other 50% of their total English input time, ends up being more of a 80% input, 20% hard-core mistake pointing out instruction time). It’s late I should go to bed instead of trying to do math which I’m not good at anyways, but does anyone get what i’m saying here?

GIT, I also use some more ‘confrontational’ methods in class- staging debates, arguing politics, moral issues- It’s worked great for me as long as two factors are present- 1) I know the student fairly well-it’s no use getting confrontational in the first month of teaching them, and 2) I have to be willing to put up with two or three REALLY awkward, students looking at you like you’re crazy and throwing daggers at you with their eyes type of classes. By the third class, they seem to get into it. I also explain to them that my Italian really sucked until I found myself an Italian boyfriend to argue with :discodance: then my skill level just sky-rocketed- arguing=the desire to really get your point across because that other bastard is WRONG= more motivation to learn the language and less fear of talking. Oh also I randomly assign students to a ‘side’ of a debate, and make it clear that no one has to say what they really believe, which makes it more of an intellectual/language exercise and less personal. Of all the activities I do in class, my students praise debates the most (and it gets them to talk the most), which according to some opinions expressed here, may not be helpful as far as learning language :neutral: , but they love the class so that gives me job security :wink:

SHit I had something else and can’t remember what- oh yeah! This whole ‘Chinese is a nuanced language’ and ‘the listener is responsible for trying to understand rather than the speaker being responsible for expressing clearly’ or whatever-
I’ve had MANY experiences that cause me to question the clarity of not just spoken but written Chinese. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe all languages are equally useful and equally sophisticated, but here’s an example-
I had an instruction manual for a fairly simple gadget, written in Chinese. I asked several friends to tell me how to use said gadget and after they read the manual, got the same response from each one- ‘yeah, we don’t really know what the manual is trying to say’ which is fine- there are a lot of poorly written English manuals out there too- but the thing that weirded me out was that NONE OF THEM SEEMED THE LEAST BIT SURPRISED OR ANNOYED THAT THEY COULDN’T UNDERSTAND IT.
Also, I have a student who dances lithely around whatever point she’s trying to make. I mean, seriously, she’ll try to have an entire conversation about dinner without ever once mentioning the words ‘eat’ ‘food’ ‘hungry’ etc. so that I have to ask her, after 3 minutes, what she is talking about. Another very advanced student told me that she talks this way because it’s normal in Chinese and it’s up to me to try to insinuate what she’s talking about. I feel like I’ve had to retrain student number one, that when using English she just needs to SPIT IT OUT and be specific and direct.
anyone else having these sort of experiences?

In my two hour adult classes I do most of the speaking. Especially the lower level classes. The Taiwanese teachers do the same, except they speak in Chinese… :s

Edit: I’ve been applying the CI methods Ironlady taught us in her workshop in KHH with the adults and my new Stage A kids class. Progress (output) is slow, but as she said, I’m not overly concerned with that. Their comprehension seems to be improving a lot more, and their confidence seems to be growing also. :2cents:

[quote=“bismarck”]
Edit: I’ve been applying the CI methods Ironlady taught us in her workshop in KHH with the adults and my new Stage A kids class. Progress (output) is slow, but as she said, I’m not overly concerned with that. Their comprehension seems to be improving a lot more, and their confidence seems to be growing also. :2cents:[/quote]

Was just gonna say, I did a 15-minute unit of it, shameless Ironlady impersonation, in a beginning class the other day. The young-uns seemed to be quite absorbed and trying to get it. I plan to keep doing so every lesson, figuring to give an early introduction of sentence patterns in my beginning students’ diet of meaningful drills.

[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“bismarck”]
Edit: I’ve been applying the CI methods Ironlady taught us in her workshop in KHH with the adults and my new Stage A kids class. Progress (output) is slow, but as she said, I’m not overly concerned with that. Their comprehension seems to be improving a lot more, and their confidence seems to be growing also. :2cents:[/quote]

Was just gonna say, I did a 15-minute unit of it, [color=#FF0000]shameless Ironlady impersonation[/color], in a beginning class the other day. The young-uns seemed to be quite absorbed and trying to get it. I plan to keep doing so every lesson, figuring to give an early introduction of sentence patterns in my beginning students’ diet of meaningful drills.[/quote]
:roflmao: Me too! Going through the whole yes-WH?-no-or cycle. Good times. :thumbsup:

How do people here generally handle your confrontational approach? It sounds fantastic to me, but I should imagine the prospect of an argument would scare the crap out of most people (especially here).[/quote]

I am not that bad actually. There are quite a few people here though, especially the REALLY smart ones who are just as tired as us probably with the whole soft headed approach to conversation where yeah, he’s got his point, I’ve got my point, neither is neccesarily any better than the other and at the end of it “nothing” was intelligently discussed. All I do is say that, in fact probably somebody “IS” actually more right on any particular issue and through a sort of competive dialectic process maybe we can figure out who it is. It is THEM as often as not. Anyway, what should be obvious is that debating is a good way to recycle the hell out of vocabulary. Sometimes you run into hammerhead asshole types who could give a piss about who is "right " and intend to just spout whatever muddleheaded insight those types tend to possess. I really get into with them, or have in the past, and the class usually lasts about a week. And of course some are so afraid of ever being wrong (or indeed proving that their teacher is) that a competitive approach wouldn’t work either. Those are, of course, really boring classes that don’t really work out either. Others keep me around. One class is pushing at a decade now.

Non: You get that many hours of English from your students? I’m jealous. I see most kids once per week. For some classes, by the time they get to class ten minutes late after sweeping leaves for their homeroom teacher (despite me asking him not to keep them after the bell), then take five minutes to stop screwing around, I’m left with just thirty-five minutes. Assuming they have English class all forty weeks of the academic year, that’s 1,400 minutes, or just over 23 hours. I only wish I had more students who did work outside of class (I have a couple, but not many) and I only wish I had more time with them. For most, CI or not, they’re going to learn about 3/5 of 5/8 of bugger all English from me this year. What can anyone get even vaguely good at, nay even past introductory level at, in 23 hours? That’s like a seminar over a long weekend.

bob: That’s cool. I think that would be really good with adults, or perhaps even senior high school students. I tried debates with junior high school students a few times and the results weren’t particularly positive.

Have them read what you want them to write, if the idea is to get them writing. You may need to write some examples yourself.

The other thing you can try is to do timed writings with them. Tell them they must write 100 words in 5 minutes. This will freak them out, but it eliminates the time they use for (poor) editing and/or rules application. You will have a much clearer picture of the language in their heads, and they will benefit from writing using the actual grammar of the language they have acquired, rather than applying a lot of rules – which obviously is not giving the results you want. Get them writing fluently first in colloquial English (which will take long enough!) before letting them try to mimic genre writing by native speaking writers.

[quote=“NonTocareLeTete”]Also, I have a student who dances lithely around whatever point she’s trying to make. I mean, seriously, she’ll try to have an entire conversation about dinner without ever once mentioning the words ‘eat’ ‘food’ ‘hungry’ etc. so that I have to ask her, after 3 minutes, what she is talking about. Another very advanced student told me that she talks this way because it’s normal in Chinese and it’s up to me to try to insinuate what she’s talking about. I feel like I’ve had to retrain student number one, that when using English she just needs to SPIT IT OUT and be specific and direct.
anyone else having these sort of experiences?[/quote]
Hehe. I have this whole rigmarole that I do where I help (adult) students come to terms with the concept of starting with the main idea. You know; introduction, paragraphs with topic sentences, etc. And part of the issue is these long meandering quasi-sentences they have been encouraged to write in the past. There’s a very uncomfortable silence when I tell them I want “one idea in one sentence, or even two sentences.” They want to put everything into one stream of consciousness. Students actually ask me how they can do that. It’s as if they can’t seperate individual ideas. My personal theory is that it’s because Chinese is so contextual, and processed in the right brain, whereas English is a left-brain, systematic language.

As a starter, try asking them to never use words to link cause and effect: because, so, therefore, as a result of, etc. And insist on result first, reasons second.

eg

I’ll take my umbrella. It’s raining… more detail if required
vs
Because it’s raining and I have a new jacket that will get wet, not to mention the news story about acid rain making my hair fall out that I saw yesterday when I was visiting my uncle … blah blah blah … so I will take my umbrella.

Incidentally, engineers find that their effective language abilities improve immensely once they start thinking of language as a process.

Chinese sentences are more similar to our paragraphs. Chinese can string together a number of what we would think of as clauses or sentences with commas. These can be quite long. When translating, I often will break them into individual sentences for this reason.

Chinese is also one of many languages that is ‘point last’. A good writer works up to his main idea which comes at the end. Antonio Chiang (Apple Daily columnist Sima Wenwu) is a great writer who almost invariably pops the reader with his main point at the end.

A third problem is the way composition is taught. Students are always asked to write on a topic like ‘That pair of hands’ or ‘That beautiful moment’ or ‘Appreciating the hard work of other’ (These are real test question from high school entrance exams). You get extra points for being emotionally moving and using Chengyu correctly. You also will almost certainly get scored down for morally questionable content. For example, major points off if your response to ‘How I spent my wonderful summer’ is an account of Chiayi’s best internet cafes.

No effort is made to teach students how to write a clear explanation of something or (heaven forbid) to take an analytical position on a question that requires a yes or no answer (Entrance exams should be abolished, Governments should never restrict free speech etc).

[quote=“Loretta”][quote=“NonTocareLeTete”]Also, I have a student who dances lithely around whatever point she’s trying to make. I mean, seriously, she’ll try to have an entire conversation about dinner without ever once mentioning the words ‘eat’ ‘food’ ‘hungry’ etc. so that I have to ask her, after 3 minutes, what she is talking about. Another very advanced student told me that she talks this way because it’s normal in Chinese and it’s up to me to try to insinuate what she’s talking about. I feel like I’ve had to retrain student number one, that when using English she just needs to SPIT IT OUT and be specific and direct.
anyone else having these sort of experiences?[/quote]
Hehe. I have this whole rigmarole that I do where I help (adult) students come to terms with the concept of starting with the main idea. You know; introduction, paragraphs with topic sentences, etc. And part of the issue is these long meandering quasi-sentences they have been encouraged to write in the past. There’s a very uncomfortable silence when I tell them I want “one idea in one sentence, or even two sentences.” They want to put everything into one stream of consciousness. Students actually ask me how they can do that. It’s as if they can’t separate individual ideas. My personal theory is that it’s because Chinese is so contextual, and processed in the right brain, whereas English is a left-brain, systematic language.

As a starter, try asking them to never use words to link cause and effect: because, so, therefore, as a result of, etc. And insist on result first, reasons second.

eg

I’ll take my umbrella. It’s raining… more detail if required
vs
Because it’s raining and I have a new jacket that will get wet, not to mention the news story about acid rain making my hair fall out that I saw yesterday when I was visiting my uncle … blah blah blah … so I will take my umbrella.

Incidentally, engineers find that their effective language abilities improve immensely once they start thinking of language as a process.[/quote]

Is that why with English speech competitions, so many of the speeches are unbearably mawkish? I find there’s a certain mawkishness in this society though.

Probably. Have you watched the soap operas? ‘Gan4dong4’ to be emotionally moved is an enormously important cultural concept here and one that we sometimes miss with our stereotype of Asian inscrutability.