[quote=“Sam Vimes”]My, what a charming utopian picture you paint.[/quote]I have a feeling I’m already being overly optimistic.
Zhujianlun – your comment about the roots of these anti-adoption attitudes has really helped to crystallize my thoughts. And Breadman, thanks so much for sharing your experience.
Here are some other astounding observations. We, along with 9 other Taiwanese couples, attended mandatory parenting classes every Saturday for a month. All of our experiences and lifestyles varied but at 35 we were the youngest couple. When asked when we would tell the child it is adopted every other couple said they had no plans to ever tell the child the truth about their history. 
What do you think about this? Breadman’s point about giving fodder to the neighborhood gossips, I don’t take lightly and we will not be discussing it with our acquaintances. As for our family, I believe being truthful with our child is the best course. Why again is there such a difference in thinking between East/West?
Another thing that has been as remarkable is the 6 month “return period”. We have been told that once we take our child home, we have 6 months to change our minds. If for whatever reason we are unhappy, no questions asked we can give the baby back and begin waiting for another baby. Likewise, the birthparents and extended family members can change their minds during that time. Obviously, the latter would be devestating. Am I naive to think that we couldn’t possibly “return” a baby whom we will consider from the beginning as our own? And where does the notion of getting to know the baby for 6 months before making a commitment come from. Any insights?
[quote=“VirtualTea”]
Another thing that has been as remarkable is the 6 month “return period”. We have been told that once we take our child home, we have 6 months to change our minds. If for whatever reason we are unhappy, no questions asked we can give the baby back and begin waiting for another baby. Likewise, the birthparents and extended family members can change their minds during that time. Obviously, the latter would be devestating. Am I naive to think that we couldn’t possibly “return” a baby whom we will consider from the beginning as our own? And where does the notion of getting to know the baby for 6 months before making a commitment come from. Any insights?[/quote]
Again, I think Chinese people regard it as a practical exchange and attach little sentimentality to the whole thing. If you’re drawing up such a a “contract” wth the birth parents, and either party wishes to opt out, it appears that there’s a standard 6 month opt out period.
As I said before, your neighbors would probably be baffled by the Western practice of “blind” adoption, and the waiting period is a way of compensating for not being able to judge the child and its parentage beforehand. And as for the birth parents, they might think you’re some kind of cruel Shylock demanding his pound of flesh if you’re not willing to given them a chance to reconsider the weighty contract they’re entering with you.
They’re probably asking, where do these Westerners get these crazy ideas? :loco:
[quote=“VirtualTea”] When asked when we would tell the child it is adopted every other couple said they had no plans to ever tell the child the truth about their history. 
What do you think about this? Breadman’s point about giving fodder to the neighborhood gossips, I don’t take lightly and we will not be discussing it with our acquaintances. As for our family, I believe being truthful with our child is the best course. Why again is there such a difference in thinking between East/West?
[/quote]
I think it’s best for the child to know everything from the start. Normally people have pics of the day the baby was brought home from the hospital. Foster parents have pics of the child’s arrival as well - they can easily be used to tell the child where s/he really comes from.
I think if you tell the truth from the very beginning, the 2- or 3-year-old child takes it as the most normal thing in the world. When you tell that to a 12-year-old, s/he will probably be shocked and would have a hard time forgiving you for having lied to him/her for years.
6-month trial period sounds cruel to me. Can you imagine adopting a new-born baby, loving it as if it was your own biological child, and then losing it because the mom’s alcoholic parents have decided to bring it up by themselves? Poor child, poor family! Gives me shivers to even think about it. 
[quote=“Notsu”][quote=“VirtualTea”] When asked when we would tell the child it is adopted every other couple said they had no plans to ever tell the child the truth about their history. What do you think about this? Breadman’s point about giving fodder to the neighborhood gossips, I don’t take lightly and we will not be discussing it with our acquaintances. As for our family, I believe being truthful with our child is the best course. Why again is there such a difference in thinking between East/West?
[/quote]
I think it’s best for the child to know everything from the start. Normally people have pics of the day the baby was brought home from the hospital. Foster parents have pics of the child’s arrival as well - they can easily be used to tell the child where s/he really comes from.
I think if you tell the truth from the very beginning, the 2- or 3-year-old child takes it as the most normal thing in the world. When you tell that to a 12-year-old, s/he will probably be shocked and would have a hard time forgiving you for having lied to him/her for years.
6-month trial period sounds cruel to me. Can you imagine adopting a new-born baby, loving it as if it was your own biological child, and then losing it because the mom’s alcoholic parents have decided to bring it up by themselves? Poor child, poor family! Gives me shivers to even think about it. [/quote]
I don’t think it (for the child to know everything from the start) would be a good idea if the child’s going to live and grow up in this society where s/he may be discriminated against, be laughted at, or be talked about behind his/her back…Adoption is not “normal” here. Never was and will not in the near future.
A baby is an object. A child is his/her parents’ property. Doing a legal “adoption” (as opposed to underground one) is like doing a business so there should be a “cooling off period” and some sort of “warrantee.”
“Why spend money on a stranger’s child?”, “Why not have children of your own?”…Your biological child is precious and important to you (or to your family name) but why care about or care for other people’s children!? (Is this why other people don’t give a damn to yours either?)
Although I’m disgusted about these notions, many of the members of my in-laws’ and my own extended family think so.
[quote=“ajklin”]
I don’t think it (for the child to know everything from the start) would be a good idea if the child’s going to live and grow up in this society where s/he may be discriminated against, be laughted at, or be talked about behind his/her back…Adoption is not “normal” here. Never was and will not in the near future.[/quote]
That’s odd, I never heard of anyone laughing at or talking about either my father in law or my mother in law, both of whom were adopted. And if adoption is such a freak show in Taiwan, how could it be that both of my parents in law are adopted?
Are you sure you aren’t taking the unpleasant attitudes of your family and unfairly projecting them on all of Taiwanese society? As others have pointed out, there are well defined customs surrounding adoption–just ones that happen to be different than what we as Westerners are used to.
There is no way I could keep our child’s birth story from him/her. Of course, everthing needn’t be talked about too early on. And it won’t be a matter of public broadcast, either. I fear not telling the child reasonably early on will lead to problems down the road far more dangerous to the family than what some cruel outsider may say. But having said that, others cruelty is probaby why so many adoptive parents here decide against telling the child.
Sam Vimes, I would be curious to know how your in-laws were treated and how much openness there was about their adoptions. In doing homework for our adoption class, we called someone in the family whom we know is adopted. It seemed to be common knowledge. Her mother answered the phone and we explained why we were calling. Luckily, she wasn’t at home and her mother told us that though her daughter is 18 she doesn’t know that she is adopted. It was a sticky situation for us and one we won’t soon forget. So, while she’s escaped persecution, I wonder what the repurcussions will be to come? Perhaps your in-laws only learned of their birth-status when they became adults? If otherwise, it will be the first time I’ve heard of a family telling before the child reached adulthood.
According to my wife, they’ve always been very open about it, and both her mother and father were aware of their adopted status from a very early age. As far as I can tell, there’s never been any embarassment or shame attached to it at all. 
You assume that the girl you mention wasn’t told about her status in order to avoid neighborhood children chasing after her with rotten tomatoes in hand. But are you really sure that’s the reason? Furthermore, all you guys keep talking about adoptees being “persecuted”, but you haven’t really talked about any specific examples–just hearsay, as it were, and your impressions of people’s general attitudes. Maybe you’re misinterpreting things a wee bit? :ohreally:
[quote=“VirtualTea”] There is no way I could keep our child’s birth story from him/her. . .
In doing homework for our adoption class, we called someone. . . her daughter is 18 she doesn’t know that she is adopted. . . [/quote]
I agree, VT. I can understand not telling the child in the first few years, because a 2 or 3 or 4 year-old might not know how to deal with such information and might feel he or she was discarded due to being bad or inferior or that the adoptive parents don’t matter or something like that (even older kids might feel that way, but at least one can discuss the situation and let them know that’s not the case). I don’t know what age is proper to tell the kid: 8? 12? I don’t know, but definitely years before 18.
My wife told me an unusual Taiwan adoption story. One of her best friends is one of 10 children (dogs aren’t the only creatures that should get spayed/neutered). Apparently, by the time they got to number 10 the mother was getting tired of raising all the kids and they knew someone on the other side of their small town who wanted a child, so they gave #10 up for adoption to this neighbor who raised the kid and, from time to time, the kid will run into members of her biological family around town. To me that sounds totally bizarre and I would think that child might feel abandoned and excluded from her family, but . . . maybe I just don’t understand Chinese culture.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
My wife told me an unusual Taiwan adoption story. One of her best friends is one of 10 children (dogs aren’t the only creatures that should get spayed/neutered). Apparently, by the time they got to number 10 the mother was getting tired of raising all the kids and they knew someone on the other side of their small town who wanted a child, so they gave #10 up for adoption to this neighbor who raised the kid and, from time to time, the kid will run into members of her biological family around town. To me that sounds totally bizarre and I would think that child might feel abandoned and excluded from her family, but . . . maybe I just don’t understand Chinese culture.[/quote]
This is my mom in laws story. Tell you the truth, her real blood family are cold and cheapskates. Her adoptive famiy are funny warm and generous, except for the gangster uncle that ran off to China before his enemies gave him a columbian necktie… but now I’m just bragging.
Some people luck out. 
Same here. I suspect it’s not unusual at all.
jdsmith, except for the gangster uncle part, to all appearances you could be my brother in law–that is, it would look as if you married into the same family.
Same here. I suspect it’s not unusual at all.
jdsmith, except for the gangster uncle part, to all appearances you could be my brother in law–that is, it would look as if you married into the same family.[/quote]
She’s from Shi-hu (she-hoo), in Changhua County…
[quote=“Sam Vimes”]I suspect it’s not unusual at all.[/quote]I’ve heard this story, or damn near identical, hundreds of times.
I also know lots of people with ‘cousins’ whose relationship they unable or unwilling to define very clearly. Could be that they’re half siblings resulting from the usual bigamy, or it could be the informal adoption network at play again.
[quote=“MT”]dogs aren’t the only creatures that should get spayed/neutered[/quote]:lol: 
:bravo:
Sam Vimes: It’s wonderful to hear that your in-laws fared well. It sounds like your in-laws families are outstanding people. Being that the overwhelming majority of Taiwanese couples I’ve met don’t want to tell, it’s a pleasant surprise to hear your story. In our family, I don’t know why they haven’t told their daughter. You’re right, I assumed it was to escape some sort of persecution, beit from family, acquaintances or both. Or maybe they fear that when she hit her teen angst ridden years she would want to go back to her “real” mom and dad (I’ve heard that before). What other reasons could their be?
Since you asked about examples, I have another one: A woman in our adoption class, shared with us her story. She said that her parents came to her school and in her classroom told her that her mother died in childbirth and that shortly after her father was killed in an accident. They were actually her aunt and uncle. As she told the story, it was obviously very painful for her. Her advice was to wait until the child was 18 to tell, but to do it in a private setting.
Mother Theresa - We’re thinking of introducing our child to concept of adoption through animals. I’ve seen a lot of National Geographic since moving to Taiwan… and I’ve learned some female adults nurture babies that are not offspring. I think this is how we’ll bring it up, very early on. By letting her know that this kind of nuturing is natural and everyone in the situation benefits, both the child and the parents, she’ll hopefully understand that she is as big a contribution to our lives as we are to hers. I’ve seen some good books approaching the situation this way.
Great idea. :bravo: It sounds like you will be great parents.
Good luck with the adoption.
My wife is also open-minded and gets it, but she says that she wouldn’t want to adopt in Taiwan anyway because of what other people might say and how they might treat the child.
Clearly there are two types of adoption being discussed in this thread:
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Some posters have mentioned that they know local folks who were adopted. The same is true of my girlfriend’s Mom. This WAS common practice in the PAST. I am sure if we thought about it for a moment, we would realize almost all of these adoptions were in the pre-1950 era. As already described, this was often linked to arranged marriages. A “daughter” would be brought into the family as a wife for the son in later years. Alternatively, a son or daughter was sent to live with wealthier relatives, and was to all intents and purposes “adopted”. It was a very practical arrangement.
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The more “western” concept of adoption, and I use this expression only because it IS more common in the west, where a complete stranger is taken in, is usually met by the same responses posters here have mentioned. Adoption in the modern sense of the word is just not big here, whereas, in some western countries, it’s almost “trendy”, which is another issue for concern (and I am NOT implying that this motivates all or even most adoption decisions) . But that’s another thread.
My example: When I brought up the idea of adoption with my gf the other day, I was met with the same response as other posters.
Her: “If I have children, they must be my own”.
Me: “OK, that’s your choice, but could you tell me the reasoning behind this?”
“It’s just…No, I would only have my own.” End of conversation.
An interesting article on adoption on page 2 of the TPE Times today.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/08/12/2003267373
[quote]Unlike countries such as the Netherlands, where parents face the adoption issue with a open mind, adoption is still viewed as a shameful secret in Taiwan. Many abandoned children are therefore placed with families overseas…
According to the foundation, there are approximately 5,000 children abandoned in Taiwan every year.
Only about 10 percent of these children are adopted.[/quote]
This is a practice know as 童養媳, where people sell their daughter to another family who have a young son, or are anticipating one.
The girl’s family is usually poor, and will not be able to afford dowry in the future, or have too many children to raise anyway. The boy’s family either has a son whom it will be hard to find a wife for, wants another person to add to the task force without too much extra cost, or won’t be able to afford a complete wedding if their son marries in adulthood.
The girl is sold in childhood to her husband’s family. She usually comes from a poor family. This is an alternative to drowning a girl child at birth, since girls were viewed as useless. Often times they had names like 罔市(raise half-heartedly) or 招弟(bring a younger brother).
The husband is almost always younger than the girl. Sometimes he is not even born yet at the purchase of the girl.
Once she goes to live with her husband’s family, most of the time the girls are treated like servants. They have to raise their husband, cook, clean, get yelled at and abused in general. Not many were treated as a valued member of the family.
So when her husband grows up, she basically marries her younger brother.
If a boy was given up for adoption, it was usually to a richer relative or another family because they could not produce a son. And they are treated by the adopted family like their own.
Usually preferable to adopt a relative’s son, as he would have the same “blood”.
Traditionally, Chinese people feel a strong desire to continue their bloodline with a son and pass down the family name.
So as long as everything is done in secret, the adopted child can take on the family name, and be a “real” son to the parents.
The reason adoptive parents keep the adoption a secret is because they may be afraid of what other people will say. Like, look. So and so are infertlie so they had to adopt some one else’s baby. Or other children might call the kid names like 雜種(bastard).
Also, when they adopt a child, they don’t want to feel like they are raising someone else’s children. They want to have a child that is entirely “their” child. With loyalty only towards them. They don’t want the child to consider them anything else than his/her real parents. People used to say, 養兒防老(have kids as a precaution for when you get old). And traditionally, Chinese parents expect their children to provide for them when they are old. If the adopted child realizes he/she is adopted, which set of parents is he/she going to support when they grow old?
So, when infants are adopted, their adoption is usually hidden from them. When older children are adopted, they usually have to severe all ties with their biological family. Or told, “no, no. WE are your mother and father now.”
Adoption is the last resort for Taiwanese people, because they don’t want to raise someone else’s child. Also, if you adopt, it suggests that you are infertile or that there’s something wrong with you.
When I decide I want to raise a child, I don’t think adoption would be my first choice. If I were infertile and it was a choice between expensive elaborate surgery and adoption, I would probably choose to adopt.
Logically, I know that if I adopt a child, the fact that the child is not genetically “mine” will not matter at all. I would love him/her and care for him/her as I would a child that is biologically mine. The same if my future spouse has children from previous partners. I would love them as my own.
People who choose adoption first rather than bearing children themselves are immensely admirable in my mind.
But I’m selfish, and there is just something about, well, producing a baby from my body, that has a strong appeal to me. The thought of carrying the child of the man I love to be the embodiment of our love. Also kind of, “I love you so much I want to have and raise your child.” And the feeling that the child is really really MINE to love and raise because he/she was made from my own flesh and blood. Even now I can imagine how truly amazing it would be to have a child of my own.
As Taiwanese society evolves, the desire to have someone to carry on the family name declines. People are more content with just raising and loving a child, regardless if he/she will pass on the family bloodline.[/quote]