Daltongang, have you ever in your life participated in a real air raid drill? And have you ever spent some time wearing a uniform and carrying a gun? If you did, you should know that the games played here have no practical use. This is nothing about “tai ma fan”, this is plain stupid and worthless and I don’t like to do stupid and meaningless things. (Though I have to admit I did a few such things back in the army…) If you want to do something, you should do it properly or just leave it!
I know what I have to do in case of an air raid, I had the opportunity to train that - but I also know my choices in such case will be limited, very limited indeed, mostly due to the local infrastructure, architecture etc. And I know I will NOT rely on local police or firefighters to lead me to a shelter, I can see their professionalism every day and something tells me if I ask the policeman on the road for the way to the next shelter his response will not satisfy me…
Whether I have or not is irrelevant. Hey I already said why I thought it is a reasonable order by the authorities. All I keep hearing from you is that “it’s a waste of time” with no more to back it up than that you have picked up a gun.
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Originally posted by C. H. Lin:Well, that’s what the founding fathers of the United States beleived 200 some years ago. It’s in the constitution of the US. Strange.
The militia are written into the US constitution due to the historical origins of the revolution. However the consequence of this has not been entirely good, the clause concerning militias (‘the right to bear arms’) is used today to prevent the introduction of gun control. The result is widespread gun ownership, gun crime, high murder rates… National defense is now entirely in the hands of a standing army and the national guard, although if that failed I expect a few gun owners would rally along the theme of ‘live free or die’.
quote[quote] Yeah. A bunch or farmers were able to defeat the most powerful empire of earth. At the end of the revolution, America had a standing army of only 8,000 men while the British had 65,000 stationed in North America. [/quote]Also let’s not forget that the PLA is the same army that defeated CKS following the ‘long march’, prevailing from what looked like a weaker position!
There are however some differences in this situation. England at the time of the American revolution was maintaining a 3000 mile supply line with 18th century technology, it was a long sea crossing. China is 150 miles from Taiwan - think 1/2 hour air flight, less for missiles. Taiwan is also a lot smaller and it would be very hard to conduct the type of warfare that led to the success of the American revolution or the Chinese communists.
What we are talking about here is not a popular revolution though, but national defense. I’d rather not rely on China picking a leader with the talents of General Cornwallis!
If the defense of Taiwan does depend on schoolkids with guns, then bear in mind China’s alone birthrate could maintain their army against staggering killrates.
Other than anectodal and dogmatic comments, is anyone feeling up to explaining why Taiwan’s defense is better the way it is now?
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Originally posted by Malkie:There are however some differences in this situation. England at the time of the American revolution was maintaining a 3000 mile supply line with 18th century technology, it was a long sea crossing. China is 150 miles from Taiwan - think 1/2 hour air flight, less for missiles. Taiwan is also a lot smaller and it would be very hard to conduct the type of warfare that led to the success of the American revolution or the Chinese communists.
Well we could always compare Taiwan’s national defense system with that of Finland. Read up some on the Russo-Finnish War (1939). The Finns (without a natural barrier) kicked Russian butt until they were finally ground down.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin1.html
And then there’re the Israelis. How many wars have THEY fought and won since 1948?
In both cases we’ve seen small countries with little or no space in which to retreat, stand up and defeat or cripple MUCH larger opponents. With no outside intervention.
And speaking of China, the Vietnamese handed their butts to them back in 1979 while at the same time beating the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Again, no natural barriers a la The Taiwan Straits.
quote:I won't argue that history has many examples of the underdog previaling, however I'm not sure I would draw the conclusion that it would be better to have a raggle-taggle or underfunded defense because they might win if they got lucky. There are also rather a lot of examples of the better organized, better equipped, better funded side winning.
Originally posted by O'Brian: ... In both cases we've seen small countries with little or no space in which to retreat, stand up and defeat or cripple MUCH larger opponents. With *no* outside intervention ...
So are what you saying? That it would be better if the people and government here just roll over and tell the PRC “Do me”?
It might be trite to say, but I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees. The Taiwanese can decide which they want.
And I guess we can judge by the lines at the visa office at AIT.
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Originally posted by O'Brian: So are what you saying? That it would be better if the people and government here just roll over and tell the PRC "Do me"?
No, what I am saying is that Taiwan should switch to a professional army regular army, funded to a level consistent with likely threats.
National service should be ended, the young men freed up can then take up more suitable employment, pay tax and along with everyone else help fund national defense. Anyone who feels they need to serve their country in the military can join the army as a regular. Failing that, create a realistic national defense volunteer force based on the Swiss model or the US national guard (both of which require training updates).
Hopefully with the increased military professionalism, silly charades like the air raid drill would be deemed unnecessary and hopefully the widely alleged cronyism associated with national service can also be stamped out.
Daltongang, if you read what I wrote, you should have noticed some background for my “claim”, but again:
What is a drill or any kind of training aimed at? Improving a certain ability (or a few) of one or more people. Sometimes, the person being trained may have no previous skills at all, so it might even be sufficient to let the person reach a very basic level.
So, if you go to a training course for bike racing, what would you expect? That the guys there teach you how do drive your bike faster - without crashing or crushing yourself or others. If that expectation is not fulfilled, would you rate that course a failure? I would.
What is an air raid drill good for? To give people knowledge (theory) how to behave in a certain situation and to give them the ability to apply (praxis) that knowledge. The first step (imho) would be a kind of lecture, where people are also informed about the locations of shelters. Such lecture can be held locally (classrooms, companies,…) without putting the whole island into coma. Even practical training (step two) can be done this way. If the whole nation gets involved, than it will be because someone WANTS the whole nation to be involved, not only police and firefighters.
Now my questions again: Do you or does anyone here know thanks to that drill where his/her nearest/assigned shelter is? Does anyone know how to get into it? Or will everybody just wait outside until the magic guy (what was his name…) with the key shows up?
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In the case of an air raid police and firemen will need to get to certain locations quickly.People running and driving around the streets will hinder this and will likely be injured by each other and by bombs/debris.
In the event of an actual air raid such a situation should be prevented.
For the sake of the drill it is entirely reasonable that the prevention of this situation be simulated.
In case of an air raid, I doubt police will be able to get to certain locations quickly, because streets will be full of people in panic. And something tells me those people will not wait beside the road to let police drive smoother when their life is threatened.
So even for the police, the way the drills are held is not really oriented towards reality.
And something else: I doubt those drills are very suited for today’s situation. This is not WWII any more, although the drills are still held the same way. Actually, Taipeh citizens wouldn’t need to rush: The first hits have to be placed in (near) Taichung, because here is the heart of Taiwans air defense.
And finally, if you still have that much trust into local authorities when it comes to military questions: Have a look at the glorious history of the ROC army, which reflects its expertise. Read “Formosa betrayed” at www.romanization.com for a start. And then tell me again you will trust everyone who works for the government without any question…
I’m not against training. Without training, one will not gain any skill. But I’m against useless training, because it only wastes time…
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Originally posted by Malkie: Failing that, create a realistic national defense volunteer force based on the Swiss model....
As I recall, the Israelis and Swedes BOTH have national service sytems based on the Swiss model. Unless it’s been changed, ALL men are required to serve.
Taiwan’s defense needs are EXACTLY that…defensive. Taiwan has no need to be into “power projection”. That’s best left to the US. All Taiwan needs to be able to do is defend Taiwan.
In addition, serving in the military is a socializing force you are ignoring. It’s probably the first time in their lives Taiwanese men have ever REALLY considered themselves as anything other than #1 son #2 son or whatever. There’s nothing like standing guard at 3AM knowing someone somewhere out there wants to kill you to bring home reality.
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Originally posted by O'Brian: ... In addition, serving in the military is a socializing force you are ignoring...
I would suggest compulsory military service teaches the ideals of slavish obedience to authority, personal impotence, the notion that authority can’t be questioned, that it is okay to oppress individual’s basic human rights (freedom of speech, employment etc.), it also the value of nationalism through force (rather than tolerance and diplomacy) that reduced most of the world to conflict twice in the last centurym (since people saw it fit to fight for these causes).
This seems like a bunch of skills that have little place in modern society or business. Exactly how does it work as a socializing force in your opinion?
I find it very interesting to compare the management styles of men and women in Chinese companies. The men have often inhereted a bunch of inappropriate skills from the army and take it out on their employees. The women on the other hand tend to use more appropriate styles.
If it is so important as a socializing force then why not send women too? Perhaps sexism is also a value you wish to preserve?
What I really suspect is that having been forced to do this yourself you are looking for a justification for the time wasted. Don’t forget you could have spent that time really learning social values, and canning the wargames.
For those who might be interested in a more complete treatment of this topic, members may find the following of interest:
http://www.scsp.hu/eng/archives/2000apr/hadk.htm
Quote by Alof
quote[quote] In case of an air raid, I doubt police will be able to get to certain locations quickly, because streets will be full of people in panic. [/quote]Interesting, as I didn’t see much panic last week. Maybe I just live in a part of Taiwan where people understand the procedure. We don’t have many whingers out here either. Isn’t the idea of a drill to show people what to do in the case of an air raid? Similar to the yearly fire drills we do at school. I’m no expert in army warfare, and survival tactics, although I did watch a fair bit of Rambo and Missing in Action when I was a knacker, but it makes sense to have a system in place so that people know what to do. Seems after reading the entirety of this thread, the only person panicking was South African without a helmet.
So Horny, you’re saying that all we have to do in the event of an air raid is stand on the street corner until its over?
Phew, that’s pretty easy. Even I could do that.
All I’m saying is what’s going on with the politics here. We’ve got people blaming Abian for gods sake, when Lee Tung Hui was running the show there were drills weren’t there? What’s everyone complaing about. We’re living in a country that, although we sometimes forget, does have missiles pointed in its direction.
Just do what the man say’s, calmy walk into the nearest 711, grab some chips of the shelf, crack open the cans, and hope this aint ganna be the Commy version of Pearl Harbour.
OK, serious again. What’s wrong with taking precautionary measures?, or would it be safer to have everyone running around looting and just crazy in a panic? You need to know what to do in an emergency situation. If a plane is going down, do you crouch down is the designated position, or run around like an Israeli bronze medalist? Crisis needs control. Come on, think about it, a few too many knuckleheads haven’t thought this through. You need to be cool, calm and collected …
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Originally posted by Malkie:I would suggest compulsory military service teaches the ideals of slavish obedience…
Have you ever served in the military or is your opinion based on having watched too many war movies?
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Originally posted by Malkie:I find it very interesting to compare the management styles of men and women in Chinese companies. The men have often inhereted a bunch of inappropriate skills from the army and take it out on their employees. The women on the other hand tend to use more appropriate styles.
What makes you think they learned their “management skills” from the military??? Have you ever worked with Chinese in other countries or is Taiwan your sole experience? I’ve worked with and for Chinese/Taiwanese in the US, SouthEast Asia, Europe and Taiwan. Trust me, the so-called management skills (aka abuse) you see exhibited here in Taiwan are pretty much par for the course anywhere you’re dealing with Chinese companies.
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Originally posted by Malkie:If it is so important as a socializing force then why not send women too? Perhaps sexism is also a value you wish to preserve?
I think it’s a great idea as my daughter served with the 82d Airborne Division in Kosovo.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/313mibn.htm
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Originally posted by Malkie:What I really suspect is that having been forced to do this yourself you are looking for a justification for the time wasted. Don’t forget you could have spent that time really learning social values, and canning the wargames.
My draft number was 329 (no way I could be drafted) but I dropped out of college and volunteered. I spent 14 months with the 23rd Infantry Division in Vietnam. I think it was one of the best things I’ve ever done…anyway, I got to spend my R&R in Taipei. And that was interesting! Ever hear about the Taiwan Basket Trick???
It would seem that you choose a military career and did not have it forced on you. Try to understand it is not everyone’s choice.
I still don’t follow why you think forcing people to serve is a good thing for society.
My opinions (like it matters) are based on the experiences of friends who have served in Taiwan’s military… and wasted a lot of time there, and study of expert opinion on the subject like the link I posted above.
Now I could also attack you on the grounds that maybe your experience was limited because you had not done this that or the other… it is easily done but the argument is unconvincing, especially to others who might also lack your experiences and wonder why you have reached the conclusions that you do.
There is also an implication that you don’t think others can review the facts as they see them and draw their own conclusions. This is the central feature of democracy, and after all isn’t that the way of life that the military is in place to defend?
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Originally posted by Malkie: It would seem that you [b]choose[/b] a military career and did not have it forced on you.
A couple of years in the military does not a career make.
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Originally posted by Malkie:There is also an implication that you don’t think others can review the facts as they see them and draw their own conclusions.
Using selective “facts” with absolutely no experience is absolutely worthless.
About your Taiwanese friends opinions, they are simply expressing the common Chinese complaint first espoused by Mencius, “You don’t use good iron to make nails and you don’t use good men as soldiers.” Why else do you think the Chinese have historically been so reliant on foreign mercenaries???
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Originally posted by horny horn: OK, serious again. What's wrong with taking precautionary measures?, or would it be safer to have everyone running around looting and just crazy in a panic? You need to know what to do in an emergency situation.
Exactly the point raised by Olaf, et al – you need to know what to do in an emergency. What did the drill teach any of us about what to do in an emergency? Don’t cross a main intersection if there are cops there?
I’m not disputing the need for precautionary measures at all, I’m saying that the “measures” such as they were, employed by the authorities, were not precautionary and did not provide the public with any information whatsoever with regard to dealing with an emergency.
By the way, my cheap shot about standing on a street corner during an air raid was something I overheard in Starbucks from a Computex visitor. It raised a laugh from his buddies and I’m sure he regaled his colleagues with it when he returned home. Taiwan’s a laughing stock, yet again.
O’Brien, aren’t you being a little obtuse with your “two years in the military does not a career make” statement?
The point here is that you volunteered. Not the same as being shoved kicking and screaming into a uniform.
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Originally posted by O'Brian: Using selective "facts" with absolutely no experience is absolutely worthless.
Strange as it may seem I would have thought everyone could examine evidence at their disposal and be able to draw valid conclusions? War and its consequences affect many more people than those who have direct experience of military service. Aren’t their opinions valid in your view?
Surely it is the quality of the analysis and the persuasiveness of the argument that are at issue. For example, you don’t have to try kill people to be able to reach the conclusion murder has undesirable consequences.
It seems to me that your viewpoint cannot be defended without attacking me directly. So be it, you have made your point in your own way.
So until you present a persuasive argument for compulsory military service, or explain the reasons why having it has desirable social consequences, or explain to us why military affairs cannot be discussed in a democratic manner, I’m out of here
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Originally posted by sandman: O'Brien, aren't you being a little obtuse with your "two years in the military does not a career make" statement?
Maybe my grammar was a little “yoda-esque” but most people consider 20 years in any profession a career. If you work 2 years teaching English in Taiwan when you’re 20 years old, does that make education your career?
Chinese culture’s problem has always been the selfishness, the “it’s all about me” attitude so often exhibited. In Singapore they actually have a word for it (including a comic strip and TV comedy series). The term is “kiasu”.
http://www.asianjoke.com/Singapore/a_to_z_of_kiasu_philosophy.htm
http://ch5.mediacorptv.com/mr_kia.htm
Everyone seems to want to be the Big Lao Ban but no seems to realize that it helps to first know how to SERVE. You ever hear the phrase “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country”?