what the hell university did you graduate from Big Dunc? Brown or Berkeley? Yikes what the hell… universalist, particularist continuum, and I am at one end of it. Yeah, it’s call the sane and practical end. Whew! I bet I can find a reference to that on zmag.org.
Check out the Argentina chapter of zmag.org or zmag.net. Look at the authors who are writing about Argentina or any Latin American country for that matter. They are STUDENTS like in the Freshmen year of college or else some derelict pot-smoking derelict drunk that you would find in Spin. Pick the oldest, drunkest English teacher from Canada down there ask him (OR HER) what he/she thinks of politics etc. quote it during their drunken stupor and print it up. I guarantee that zmag will put it up. The sad thing is that this is where a lot of well-meaning people get their information.
I remain, until you can show me something better, I’m sticking with what’s tried and true.
Second, when you hear nations whining and bitching about the US, what they are really saying is "The US is a sympathetic pushover. The more noise we make, the more likely they are to do something for us (financially) so threaten them with statements like “We won’t like you anymore. We will think that you are bad.” and see what happens.
In the meantime, we will, however, continue to keep our money in US banks, shop in US cities, take our vacations in Disney World, get our expertise, whether banking, agricultural, whatever from the US and continue to follow its lead when it comes to international negotiations whether military, trade or financial. So until something better comes along… France, Germany, Russia, China, Japan, South Africa, Brazil, Nigeria, India, Indonesia, Canada? Come on, get real, whenever one of these countries gets in the lead then we will see about who or what is willing to follow. Oh right, I forgot the United Nations.
Where in the entire history of Latin America has the United Nations been? (perhaps occasionally in Central America) there are tons of poor people in Latin America, tons of problems, and the UN has been? in Africa, helping them and donating vaccines and feeding the poor for what the 40th or 50th year? depending on the country? When Argentina had its financial meltdown where was the United Nations Children’s Relief Fund (tapped out in Africa) or the debt relief committee (busy in Africa) or the discussions to forgive Third World debt (hint in a continent that starts with AF…
So this universalist, particularist continuum has said its piece for the day
ICRT, quoting a wire story I assume, called the Iraqis, who attacked and killed British troops yesterday, insurgents.
Fred Smith, Tigerman et al
Those problems you see in Iraq now I predicted before the war. It’s the same experience the British Army had in Northern Ireland. Nobody like foreigners in their country running around with tanks and guns and controlling you. You have never had the experience of a foreigner in your country sticking the end of a machine gun in your window and searching your car with all your family pissed off. The UK is going to be smart and withdraw its troops pretty soon leaving you guys to hold the bag, especially if Blair is under pressure or losing popularity on this. It’s going to be very expensive and rough for your troops there. Most Iraqis wouldn’t care about guerilla action and probably prefer the status quo than Saddam but enough (maybe 5%) will cause a steady fatality rate there and instablility. There are so many guns in Iraq it’s like an ammunition dump.
The troops are going start losing it being stuck in fortified installations for years in some shithole desert towns. They’ll make mistakes (such as bloody sunday in N.ireland and fallujah in iraq) and things will get worse in some areas. Guerilla action such as blowing up pipelines is really a simple thing to do so unless public sentiment changes and the US withdraws sooner rather than later you won’t have a fully functional economy in Iraq. Bush is also making a big mistake sacking the army. He should support a fully functional army immediately and reinstate most of the officers and pay the soldiers their salaries.
Of course the US will need years to rebuild the infrastructure to fully integrate Iraq as a workable nation.
I like being linked together with Tigerman. It means that I must be making rational, logical arguments based on facts. Thanks headhoncho!
Anyhow, CNN or Fox news had a poll yesterday showing that 65 percent of Iraqis want the Americans to stay.
Yes, there are problems in Iraq, but how many fewer Iraqis are dying today than under Saddam. Things will get better.
Also, the regime has not been “changed” yet. It has only been 10 weeks and considering how easy the war went. Well. I am not ready to throw in the towel yet.
Sounds more like glee on your part headhoncho. Just wish you would show half the enthusiasm for the poor Iraqi women and children who as far as I know are not the ones shooting the GIs. I believe that credit goes to certain pro-Saddam groups. Anyway, things may work out for the best yet. I also recall that there were many statements made (not sure if by you) regarding how the war would be a complete disaster. Quagmire, etc. Biological and chemical weapons would be used, the Middle East would be destablized (of course it would have had to have been stable first right).
Anyway, the more I post on Forumosa (got it right this time) the more I would have to say headhoncho putting me in the same category as Tigerman is a true compliment indeed. I feel vindicated. I am intelligent and capable of rational argument. Hahah 
[quote=“fred smith”]
That alone says a lot.
How did I express glee…are you paranoid?
Anyway none of you have never had occupying foreign forces sticking machine guns in the window of your family car in your own country have you? I have and it’s not a nice feeling. It doesn’t engender support from the local population over the long run. That same force is now in the Iraq and they are going to get the same reaction eventually as they received in my country.
A Fox poll? That wouldn’t be biased in anyway right, isn’t that the same tabloid TV channel that ran that ‘Jessica Lynch is our hero’ farce over and over.
Tigerman’s arguments are very rational from ‘his point of view’, as in from the trigger end of the gun.
Headhoncho:
Have I ever had a gun stuck in my face? Well let me count the times. Ain’t spent a lot of time in Africa or Latin America and Asia during the good ole days when there was always some kind of coup or other, has ya? Then again, in America, I spect you could get the same kind of treatment in the wrong kind of neighborhood. Which city in the US are you from? I expect there would be plenty of action there in the rougher areas of town.
Anyhow. Iraq has had a long history of problems that will not be solved overnight, but I think (and I could be wrong about this) that over time, things will quiet down. 10 weeks is a bit too early to tell but overall going pretty well. When I read in the Taipei Times that “Iraqis were growing impatient with the lack of cellular services.” I thought well, water, food and electricity must no longer be a problem. Be patient. 10 weeks? We should be looking at the record in TWO YEARS. I want America to stay and finish the job and I hope a few other nations will get involved too. Incidentally, from what I understand, most Iranians would love to see a few US soldiers in Teheran as well. Strangely enough Americans are widely popular in Iran right now. Go figure.
Course they aren’t so popular in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or the rest of the Arab world, but then they really aren’t in Europe either. Fickle public opinion.
Well if not glee how about schadenfreude? I think that comes pretty close to it. No? 
Im Irish you can’t figure it out…? 
I’m talking from an ex-colonial perspective and a recent personal perspective. Getting a gun pointed in your face by a criminal is not the same as taking it from some 20 yr old dopey kid from another country’s armed forces. Both are unpleasant but for different reasons.
This is only from crossing the border region, I didn’t even live in N.Ireland and I resented them. Because the UK and America in particular have no experience of ever being occupied they find it difficult to relate to. Should I feel sympathy for soldiers of such an army, maybe a little but that’s the risks they take when they sign up to do the government’s bidding and go into foreign countries by force. They are paid killers who can do other work too, the guerillas aren’t paid and don’t wear uniforms but are similar killers.
Also linking the liking of a culture and an army doesn’t work (somebody mentioned Iranians love america stuff). I like british comedies and british people. Chinese love NBA but they also love shooting down spy planes. Go figure.
Iraq was similarly occupied by foreign powers including britain for
a long time until recently so they won’t exactly be begging for you to stick around. Saddam’s brutality gives you some breathing space but that’s about it.
Huh? What do you mean by my point of view? How does my point of view differ from yours?
Headhoncho:
I just assumed that you were an American over visiting relatives in Ireland and that you had an isolated encounter with the British troops and let it get to you.
Sorry that’s just the tone I thought I heard.
So you are Irish but northern Ireland and the British troops are occupying your country? would you rather they left? That is a topic for another thread but how does that relate to what is going on in Iraq right now? Sorry bit confused. Sounds too emotional to me tying all these things in. Reminds me of this girl I used to know. Everything was always related to how she felt about this that or the other, but then maybe I was just being insensitive.
:?
Whether it’s better off for them to be there or not I don’t need them pointing guns at me and treating me like a foreigner in the island of Ireland. The british only got out of Ireland when bombed and shot them out of ireland so what’s the difference in any other country.
Ok if you were British (I don’t know) I’m sending the Irish army over to occupy Scotland. Can we stick a gun in your car at the border between Scotland and England?
I’m sure you won’t feel emotional ! Or do you think humans make decisions based on logic? That would be very naive.
Tigerman, your point of view naturally extends from the power behind being an american and having a lot of firepower. Your point of view would obviously change if you had no firepower and had part of your country occupied by another country e.g. if Canada took over Washington State tomorrow (unlikely I know 
)
Fred, you are a riot! If you think it has nothing to do with what’s happening in Iraq, you need to go back to school. (Brown would be fine, but first you’d need to be humbled a bit).
I would suggest, as a good starting point, you to take that attitude with you over to Northern Ireland and sort them out over there, just the way you think you are going to sort out those Iraqi’s and those Brown students, or is it English teachers at Spin?
“I thought”, “I just assumed”,?? yeah right.
Just like you “thought” the war in Iraq was over and you “think” the UN is useless.
Dunc
PS. This is a “read only” thread so don’t bother posting in reply. I’ll be away from the internet 'till September.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]
I’m sure if the tables were reversed and the PRC sent a spy plane along the California coast (but still over international waters), the US reaction would be a lot more aggressive. People would be screaming murder. McCarthy would rise from his grave and walk the earth.
I agree. We criticise Bush, so you come back with Disney. huh? oh wait, i get it, Bush is employed by Eisner. now it makes sense.
Or if I voted for Gore, Perot, any presidential loser, and criticise the winner, suddenly I lose my right to goto Disneyland, buy a GM car, drink Coke, smoke kentucky ganja and drink Ky. moonshine and buy MS shares. ok, because that is the ‘american way’ according to some posters here.
As for US not being occupied, I disagree. US is occupied by a lot of assholes. lol (including some of my friends i might add. those buttheads) 
dude, in case you can’t figure it out, this is a joke.
Ah Big Dumpc:
Away until September. Now I am going to have to go back to reading zmag.net myself. I like it better when it’s all summarized for me.
Anyway, don’t go away mad, just go away…
Just kidding. I guess I will have to go back to school though who would have guessed that British troops in Ireland and US/UK troops in Iraq were the same thing. Must have missed that in my Logic 101 class. Then again with my attitude, that’s probably why I never learned.
Have a great vacation. Looking forward to arguing with more in September.
As for you headhoncho, I quite welcome the Irish invasion of England and Scotland (whoops they got there already). Been to Glasgow or Liverpool recently or Manchester or London. Some sort of reverse colonization going on.
Reminds me of the sign an Indian man was holding in protest of tighter immigration rules. “We are over here because you were over there.” Quite clever.
Anyway, I do not see your point, but will give you the benefit of the doubt, but I really do not see how Saddam was a man of the people. This will not be perfect but the US/UK will leave one day and when they do Iraq will be a better place (just like South Vietnam).
Don’t know much about either American history or Southern history do you? My family’s home was the only house left standing in my home town. The only people in the town were old people, women, children and slaves. All the houses were burnt, the farm animals were slaughtered and the wells filled with their bodies. By the way, my family was turned out by the Union troops (my Great-Great Grandmother, who was about 15 was forced to play the piano while the Yankees got drunk) and the house was given to a Yankee carpetbagger from New Jersey named Springs. South Carolina had 23% of the male population over the age of 12 killed in battle. Yankees might not be able to relate to it but Southerners sure can. I suggest you read up on Sherman’s “March to the Sea”. He’s most famous for the quote “War is Hell.”
Columbia, SC after Sherman’s Troops visited
Don’t know much about either American history or Southern history do you? My family’s home was the only house left standing in my home town. The only people in the town were old people, women, children and slaves. All the houses were burnt, the farm animals were slaughtered and the wells filled with their bodies. By the way, my family was turned out by the Union troops (my Great-Great Grandmother, who was about 15 was forced to play the piano while the Yankees got drunk) and the house was given to a Yankee carpetbagger from New Jersey named Springs. South Carolina had 23% of the male population over the age of 12 killed in battle. Yankees might not be able to relate to it but Southerners sure can. I suggest you read up on Sherman’s “March to the Sea”. He’s most famous for the quote “War is Hell.”
Columbia, SC after Sherman’s Troops visited
How did it happen?
Well, it started with some schmuck over at Ft. Sumner… and then Sherman waltzed and burned things. either that, or it was a very big bomb.
( 
couldn’t resist. too much sugar…must stop)
Jack, the Chinese spy on the US from fishing trawlers all the time. The Soviets spied from planes all the time. There were no such aggressive incidents. No one in the US was screaming murder. There was and is no US outrage.
What the Chinese did was indefensible. The US observation plane (yes, there is a difference… it was not “spying”) was conducting operations well within the parameters of the UN Convention (Law of the Sea), which China is a party to. The Chinese tried to argue, contrary to the clear provisions of the Law of the Sea, that they had rights to the airspace above their exclusive economic zone (which includes only the sea and the sea bed… not the air space above it). This is incorrect, as the Law states clearly that Chinese airspace is limited to the space above the Chinese sea space, which extends only 12 n. miles from the Chinese coast. The US observation plane was hit by the Chinese plane some 60 miles south of the Chinese coast, well outside of Chinese air space.
Moreover, the US and China had reached an interim agreement regarding safety precautions for following/escorting such observation flights. The US had complained specifically about the Chinese pilot (Wrong Wei) who had been hotdogging and violating the agreement re safety measures.