What were they observing?
Jack, the Chinese spy on the US from fishing trawlers all the time. The Soviets spied from planes all the time. There were no such aggressive incidents. No one was screaming murder. There was and is no outrage.
What the Chinese did was indefensible. the US observation plane (yes, there is a difference… it was not “spying”) was conducting operations well within the parameters of the UN Convention (Law of the Sea), which China is a party to. The Chinese tried to argue, contrary to the clear provisions of the Law of the Sea, that they had rights to the airspace above their exclusive economic zone. This is incorrect, as the Law states clearly that Chinese airspace is limited to the space above the Chinese sea space, which extends only 12 n. miles from the Chinese coast. the US observation plane was hit by the Chinese plane some 60 miles south of the Chinese coast, well out of Chinese air space.
Moreover, the US and China had reached an interim agreement regarding safety precautions for following/escorting such observation flights. the US had complained specifically about the Chinese pilot (Wrong Wei) who had been hotdogging and violating the agreement re safety measures.[/quote]
Yah, you’re right. everyone spies on everyone else. it’s how you do it and how you get caught. I agree on the international waters thing. but i disagree on my scenario. I think that if there was a Chinese observation plane and not just some boat, there would be an uproar. huge diff between plane and a fishing boat. I dunno about your distinction between spy plane and observation plane. pretty thin. but is there some official / legal definition distinguishing the 2? I would be curious. That plane monitors transmissions inside the PRC, how is that observing and not spying? whats the line? btw, what do you think about the U2 incident?
Chinese broadcasts, that are up there for anyone who wants to go to the trouble of getting them.
By Brian Beedham, associate editor.
The curious thing that, in fact, the Europeans have belatedly accepted that the Americans were right in pretty well every foreign-policy argument during the past 10 years.
Examples Beedham gives are Balkans, NATO expansion to Russia’s borders, anti-missile shield, Afghanistan and Iraq. Areas of acceptable difference he includes steel tariffs, farm subsidies (though Europeans equally guilty) and Kyoto (bad but approach to rejecting it too strong).
The new wave of anti-American indignation in short is not really based on objective disagreement about solid facts. It is more a welling up of the melancholy envy felt by countries which produced the Renaissance, Reformation and Industrial Revolution, which then collected much of the rest of the world in their various empires (out of one of which came the United States) but which then chose to fight each other to a standstill. Thereupon they discovered the splendour had gone somewhere else.
Of course, there are plenty of Europeans who understand this: who see that, although the democracies on the two sides of the Atlantic will often have genuine differences of economic interest, they share the same cultural origins and geopolitical interests. In the end, these more open-minded Europeans will probably prevail. But it will take time for the old centre of the world to overcome that melancholy envy.
[quote=“tigerman”]Jack, the Chinese spy on the US from fishing trawlers all the time. The Soviets spied from planes all the time. There were no such aggressive incidents. No one was screaming murder. There was and is no outrage.
What the Chinese did was indefensible. the US observation plane (yes, there is a difference… it was not “spying”) was conducting operations well within the parameters of the UN Convention (Law of the Sea), which China is a party to. The Chinese tried to argue, contrary to the clear provisions of the Law of the Sea, that they had rights to the airspace above their exclusive economic zone. This is incorrect, as the Law states clearly that Chinese airspace is limited to the space above the Chinese sea space, which extends only 12 n. miles from the Chinese coast. the US observation plane was hit by the Chinese plane some 60 miles south of the Chinese coast, well out of Chinese air space.
Moreover, the US and China had reached an interim agreement regarding safety precautions for following/escorting such observation flights. the US had complained specifically about the Chinese pilot (Wrong Wei) who had been hotdogging and violating the agreement re safety measures.[/quote]
It was “observation”, not “spying”. There is a big difference.
Like I said, the Soviets and the US, as well as the Brits and the Soviets, played this game for years with nobody getting seriously hurt. The Chinese were way out of bounds.
The U2 incident was “spying”. That’s why the Soviets shot it down… but they never shot down any of our planes observing them.
Spying is done covertly, and usually from within the target’s territory. Observation is done overtly, and usually from without the target’s territory. This distinction is important. You have certain rights within your own territory, but you cannot enforce those rights outside of your territory. Do you think the US has the right to go about in outer space using the Space Shuttle to destroy satellites used by other nations?
Moreover, the Law of the Sea, to which China (but not the US) is a signatory, clearly states what activities are permitted by clearly-marked vessels of other nations’ armed services.
The Chinese were wrong. Plain and simple.
Very very simplistic argument.
If you were to interview the population of smaller nations in Europe who have no history or a very distant history of colonialism you will find a greater distrust of american foreign policy than previously existed.
This isn’t due to envy or melancholy. It’s due to the current hyperpower situation and projection of force worldwide. That’s a government that’s not afraid to pull punches and looks more willing to use atomic weapons if they felt they had to.
If there was all this envy why would Britain back the US in this war although it also had the largest empire? Because the EU has a mess of a foreign policy doesn’t mean that the US is always right in its foreign policy. Most europeans supported the actions in the balkans etc. by the US and were disappointed with the European Union repsonse. But I’m from a neutral country at the moment , Germany has a pacificist constitution, French like to do their own thing, the Brits too, etc…
Now there is some type of European rapid reaction force so that’s an improvement.
Europeans is a VERY generic term, especially as you are talking about 25 countries in the next year or so.
Some of it is cultural rivalry and fear of a world with one hyperpower that is taking on a big and unclear job with force (war on terror) and that is to be expected.
However it’s my bet Europeans in general are much more familiar with America and it’s politics and culture than the other way around.
Most europeans don’t hate americans in general, that’s rubbish. They like to go to Disneyland and New York just like everybody, watch friends on tv and catch all the hollywood movies. Plenty of us have relatives there and have also worked there too(me included).
With all due respect to Blueface (although he may not deserve it), a civil war of a couple of years is not the same thing as domination by a foreign power over your whole country and of one culture over another. Anyway the yanks winning the civil war was a good thing in the main as they abolished the evil practice of slavery. I know the yanks did some terrible things when they were at it though…
Rome was not built in a day and neither will Baghdad. Let’s see how it looks in 2 years not 10 weeks. Hell I had to wait 7 times as long just for Taipei to get the fucking subway running. The government had a plan in 1987 and I did not ride the damned Chung Hsiao line till I came back in 2001! Okay so I had to wait 14 years and it only took them what 13 to build? and we have people screaming about water plants, power plants etc in Iraq when they were already disfunctional BEFORE the war. Hell even Taipei doesn’t have a sewer system. 90 percent of Taiwan’s shit goes right into the river don’t you know. Power plants. How long have they been buildling the fourth nuclear here and what about those incinerator/power plants in Mailiao for Chrissake.
I really think that we can wait a while before turning into Chicken Littles.
Besides the country has to be better off without Saddam running it. While Iraq is a mess right now, I am sure the Iranians, Turks, Saudis, Jordanians, Israelis and Gulf Arabs are all sleeping better at night.
Then if the US fucks up and leaves the country (worst case scenario) the victims and prisoners of Saddam have been freed, the weapons of mass destruction programs ended, the threat to the neighbors is gone, so they are no worse off and will probably be better off in the long run (Iraqi civilians). Let’s wait and see. Fair?
The War Between The States was the costliest war ever fought by the United States. South Carolina seceded on December 20, 1860. Lee surrendered to Grant on April 9, 1865. Slightly more than a couple of years.
[b]Union Forces KIA: 364,000
Confederate Forces KIA: 133,821
Total: 497,821
WWII KIA: 406,000[/b]
Military occupation lasted until 1877, however most military bases are still located in the South. As a result of the War and “Reconstruction”, the South holds the dubious distiction of having America’s lowest per capita income as well as the poorest schools, lowest life expectancy and highest infant mortality.
Foreign power? The Union recruited troops from all over Europe, Great Britain and Canada.
“Of the 500,000 soldiers of foreign birth - Germany furnished 175,000, Ireland 150,000, England 50,000, British America 50,000 and other countries 75,000.”
civil-war.net/fox/soldier_attributes.htm
The British government aided in the recruitment of Irish troops and this came back to bite them on the ass. The IRA grew out of the Union’s Irish divisions. When the UK refused to pay war reparations from the American Civil War (the Brits allowed the CSS Alabama to operate out of British ports), the US encouraged the Irish to invade Canada in 1867.
eire.shamrock.cjb.net/
geocities.com/cancivwar/CCWLinks.html
helenamontana.com/meagher/
And if you’ve ever been to the South, you know our culture is different from the rest of the country. 
OK, getting back into character…
[quote=“Dick Morris”]Consider the global landscape in the wake of Bush’s military success:
Iranian students pour by the hundreds of thousands into the streets of Tehran to demand reform and freedom, casting off the illusion that the Khatami government can deliver them from Islamic control. The students and the whole country seem to realize that the facade of democratic choice in Iran is about the same as in student government where the kids vote but the principal runs the school.
Palestinian operatives negotiate seriously with Israel to keep the peace plan moving down the Bush road map, despite obstacles placed in their path by Arafat, Hamas and, sometimes, Sharon’s need to defend his people.
The Saudis fall all over themselves to convince us that they are now taking terrorism seriously, hunting down terrorists in public and, one hopes, curtailing their financing in private.
Sharon, emboldened by a robust American military presence in Iraq, actually begins dismantling settlements in the West Bank, a step once as unlikely as the Irish Republican Army
Well, finally someone notices that the US is not the perfect place it wants to be and has some internal problems, serious ones I would say.
So why don’t you start cleaning up your own turf before going out and policing the world with all you guns and military?
Which is pretty much the reason why US FP sucks big time - else how many other countries can you name which constantly (say since the end of WWII) meddles in other countries affairs and intervenes buy use of military force. Then look at the results and tell me again it doesn’t suck.
The perfect FP might not exist, it may be fiction or wishfull thinking but that doesn’t make the US FP suck any less - and it’s of no consequence if the FP of other countries suck less or more than the US one. It will still suck and do so for a long time if the US continues to base those actions on assumptions, guessing, making up and presenting fake evidence rather than hard and verifiable facts while killing innocent people as a result.
[quote=“fred smith”]As for you headhoncho, I quite welcome the Irish invasion of England and Scotland (whoops they got there already). Been to Glasgow or Liverpool recently or Manchester or London. Some sort of reverse colonization going on.
Reminds me of the sign an Indian man was holding in protest of tighter immigration rules. “We are over here because you were over there.” Quite clever.[/quote]
Been to Dublin lately, there’s plenty of you guys too. Actually there’s far fewer irish in those cities than there used to be I reckon.
But isn’t it wonderful that we can all be friends and that despite imperialism and colonization and nuclear weapons, everyone can just laugh over a few pints. Okay enough of that shit.
Rascal: Don’t make me start in on you regarding safety in German cities these days (Marzahn, Lichtenberg) in Berlin, Neustadt Dresden, etc. And as we have all determined in other threads, there is no German foreign policy to speak of, so what do you suppose could be causing this problem with crime? racism? attacks on foreigners? Turks? Jews? Blacks? Gays? Clearly crime and home and the many “crimes” the US has committed abroad are not necessarily linked in any logical fashion at least or should I say fascion?
[b]I’ve paid my dues -
Time after time -
I’ve done my sentence
But committed no crime -
And bad mistakes
I’ve made a few
I’ve had my share of sand kicked in my face -
But I’ve come through
We are the champions - my friends
And we’ll keep on fighting - till the end -
We are the champions -
We are the champions
No time for losers
'Cause we are the champions - of the world[/b]
We are the Champions - Queen
There but for the grace of God . . .
Nothing’s stopping you. On your next visa run why don’t you hit Baghdad instead of Hong Kong? I’m sure the guys from the 101st Airborne (The Screaming Eagles) will welcome you with open arms. 
[quote=“Gavin Januarus”]
There but for the grace of God . . .
[/quote]
- about the china-us incident, i agree china wasn’t right. the pilot just went too far with the flying games.
- observing and spying. i understand the technical difference.
- why isn’t US a signatory to Law of the Sea (learned this once, but was probably asleep in class)
and the above picture, I didn’t know insulting troops was a detainable crime. guess the old iraqi laws are still in the books. what they new is the fandangled constitution. free speech baby. go home yankee!
Nothing’s stopping you. On your next visa run why don’t you hit Baghdad instead of Hong Kong? I’m sure the guys from the 101st Airborne (The Screaming Eagles) will welcome you with open arms. [/quote]
Blueface, I’ve just been getting the uneasy feeling over the past year that I wouldn’t have to go all the way to Baghdad to get thrown into jail for saying something somebody doesn’t like. There are plenty of little czars popping up all over the US these days who seem to have the same sentiments.
Gavin:
No offense but if you think that the pansy-assed regulations in the United States are something to fear you are just deliriously self-absorbed, neurotic, whatever.
Try telling the Chileans, Argentines, Brazilians, Africans, Asians, Middle Easterners that you are “afraid” that you might be arrested in the United States these days given the new climate and I guarantee the laughter will be loud and universal.
Sorry but come on, get real. 
Fred,
Afraid? No, that’s silly. The only thing I’m afraid of is being around Blueface on a Saturday night when he’s half-drunk and having his Vietnam flashbacks.
The US still has the best constitutional laws on the books of any country on earth, though I wouldn’t call the recently enacted US Patriot Act a pansy-assed set of regulations governing the scope of civil liberties. And it will be a long while before we start behaving domestically the way we’re behaving internationally.
The mere facts though that the US government arrests people anywhere on earth simply for what they’re saying – and keeps people in detention indefinitely (Cuba) without charges or access to legal counsel – does bother me though and makes me wonder what some would do on US soil if given half the chance.
I think it’s just plain un-American to do those things anywhere, to anyone at any time. Sort of an inalienable human rights concept. (Just call me an ‘old-fashioned’ kind of patriot versus the neo-patriots we’ve got calling the shots these days.)
Lastly, anyone who thinks the US is immune to ever sliding into totalitarianism is just unmoored from a real understanding of human history.