An article from Foreign Policy magazine (a US magazine, I might add) about American nationalism and some of its effects on US foreign policy. Quite interesting, I thought. It may or may not interest the participants in the “American foreign policy sucks” thread http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13631
I guess it is of no interest. I already posted that article, but nobody commented. It was very good, I thought.
I had not read the article before. I think that it was very insightful, especially in light of the endless back and forth in some of the debates on this thread.
Both sides are really incapable of seeing the points in question. I think that at least on the anti-American side there is a great deal of projection going on. The kind of nationalism experienced in their own countries ensures that they project the same kind of nationalism on Americans even though it is perhaps inappropriate.
Juba did make a good point on the other thread though with a letter from Senator Beveridge of Indiana who at the turn of the century displayed a very clearly “typical nationalism” which clearly went beyond “patriotism.” Please refer to the US Foreign Policy Sucks.
On the other hand, Americans fail to realize how nationalistic their “patriotism” might seem to others. Very interesting and very insightful. Sorry I did not have a chance to read it earlier Tigerman. Thanks for posting it again p.
After reading the article, I felt compelled to change my icon. :mrgreen:
I thought Pacman was a solo act, and the three ghosts just chased him around. Your new avatar makes it seem like they’re on the same side 
Great article on US nationalism…Americans definitely consider their (our) form of nationalism to be benign, simply a pride in what is a better way of life. Probably doesn’t help that everyone and their mother is trying to get a green card, even the Europeans
There you go again.
That’s the view from New York. Where I live, all the foreigners are trying to get Taiwanese residency.
Didn’t I read that the UK has more asylum seekers than any other country (US included) but that doesn’t give me a warm glow. Why would green card applications make you patriotic?
Funny how our perspectives are reversed…I guess maybe people always think highly of their own country when other people want to get in. The Iraqis must think so too: “just look at how the Americans have been trying to get into our country the last 10 years” 
This is an accurate summary, I think.
There you go again. That’s the view from New York. Where I live, all the foreigners are trying to get Taiwanese residency. Didn’t I read that the UK has more asylum seekers than any other country (US included) but that doesn’t give me a warm glow. Why would green card applications make you patriotic?[/quote]
I don’t know the statistics, but I would question what you read. And if it is true, I would think that maybe the people seeking asylum were emergency cases and I would wonder from what part of the world were they originating and then I would think, is the UK the nearest safe harbour for them?
Don’t get me wrong, I think the UK is a wonderful place. But I think statistics indicate that when people have the time (i.e., not while they are in escape mode) to consider where they want to go, th US still takes in more legal and illegal immigrants than any other nation.
But I’m glad Maoman posted that graphic and summary… I tried to do so on the American policy thread… but I’m an idiot and couldn’t…
I think Americans are proud, sometimes shamelessly and obnoxiously so, but for good and natural reasons, at least.
I sure hope Maoman posted that with a wry grin on his face. Otherwise I must speculate that he was so overjoyed with the news that pot is now not illegal in Canada that he has taken a few too many puffs out on his balconey in the Copa Cabana. 
That chart. What a pile of horseshit.
America is haunted by it’s humiliation and losses in Vietnam. It affects the everything from current foreign policy to the choice of spot to first getting laid by young men.
America is haunted by the legacy of slavery. It affects everything from educational policy to marriage. Historical grudges. Aggrieved feelings. Oh yah, Americans have a few of those.
American nationalism has only recently enjoyed a resurgence because of the humiliation of 911. Before 911 nationalism was the province of squares and fundamentalists.
There you go again. That’s the view from New York. Where I live, all the foreigners are trying to get Taiwanese residency. Didn’t I read that the UK has more asylum seekers than any other country (US included) but that doesn’t give me a warm glow. Why would green card applications make you patriotic?[/quote]
I don’t know the statistics, but I would question what you read. And if it is true, I would think that maybe the people seeking asylum were emergency cases and I would wonder from what part of the world were they originating and then I would think, is the UK the nearest safe harbour for them?[/quote]
That’s pretty much got it in one. The U.S. is where all the Mexicans and Guatemalans and Cubans and Haitians go. Algerians and Moroccans take boats to Italy. A lot of Afghanis and Arabs go to Paris in the backs of trucks and then try to sneak into England from there. And let’s not forget that Canada is right up there with the U.S. as the destination of choice for the cargo-container crowd.
A lot of it has to do with the welfare state. England and Canada are very generous. The U.S. is much harder to get on welfare in – but has plenty of job opportunities for the illegal immigrant willing to wash dishes, pick lettuce, and clean toilets. For those who want to become legal residents, Canada will take just about anybody and will let asylum claims drag on for a decade or more even when clear evidence is presented that the applicant has ties to terrorist groups or has been out robbing houses.
The article makes some interesting points, but it is a lousy piece overall. I
And those highly valued principles and values were where exactly when deceiving all and sundry about WMD?
There you go again. That’s the view from New York. Where I live, all the foreigners are trying to get Taiwanese residency. Didn’t I read that the UK has more asylum seekers than any other country (US included) but that doesn’t give me a warm glow. Why would green card applications make you patriotic?[/quote]
I don’t know the statistics, but I would question what you read. And if it is true, I would think that maybe the people seeking asylum were emergency cases and I would wonder from what part of the world were they originating and then I would think, is the UK the nearest safe harbour for them?[/quote]
That’s pretty much got it in one. The U.S. is where all the Mexicans and Guatemalans and Cubans and Haitians go. Algerians and Moroccans take boats to Italy. A lot of Afghanis and Arabs go to Paris in the backs of trucks and then try to sneak into England from there. And let’s not forget that Canada is right up there with the U.S. as the destination of choice for the cargo-container crowd.
A lot of it has to do with the welfare state. [/quote]
My point is that Neo gives a perfect example of US patriotism: the number of people trying to immigrate to the US bolsters his/her pride in the country. Such a response is very American.
My own country, Britain has the largest number of asylum applications in the industrialised world:
but this doesn’t make me proud. Why not? Because as several of you note, it’s a result of geography and the relative laxness of the UK welfare state. These are not things I can be proud of.
So I wonder what there is to be proud of in the demand for US green cards? Do Taiwanese emigrate to the US (rather than, say, the UK) to partake in the great national ideals of America? Aren’t the reasons more pragmatic than that?
The key insight I drew from that article (and which I get the impression the Americans on this thread haven’t picked up on) is that nationalism in the modern world is peculiar to authoritative regimes, nations in crisis and … the United States. Other developed democracies don’t really do it. Flag-waving in Britain for instance is just not done. The national flag of England (the Cross of St. George) is so rarely seen in mainstream society it’s been coopted as an emblem of the fascist far right.
I don’t think any Europeans would disagree that the sort of nationalism in the right-hand column of the chart Maoman posted is a Bad Thing. The American form of nationalism is not so malign, I agree. But I’d want to ask what you’re doing sharing the chart with the likes of the PRC, North Korea and the rest of the world’s nationalistic states in the first place.
What annoys me further, looking at that graph, is the statement that US nationalism, or those with strong nationalistic feelings, are forward looking. The most nationalistic people in the US tend to be conservative, Republican, and Christian. Such types tend not to be progressives.
Look at two recent Republican scandals: those involving Trent Lott and Rick Santorum. One man is nostalgic for the good old days of segregation, the other the good old days before gay rights, before prvacy rights in general.
The support base of the Republican party is as backward looking as you can get. These are people who want to turn the clock back to the old days when men and women had clear and separate roles, gays were in the closet, Christian morals had a great influence on laws, there was no welfare state, and evolution was still just an idea that could be dismissed.
These people are the flag wavers, the America number one chanters. These are your nationalists. These are the lunatics who during Reagans presidency tried to tell me that being a good Christian meant supporting America and the Star Wars system. I asked what about when America’s and Canada’s interests conflicted? Still gotta support the US cause it’s God’s country.
I took “forward-looking” meaning to focus on the future rather than dwell on the past. I didn’t infer any ideological tendencies from it.
I thought the article made the point quite clearly. The comparison was between the US and other nations, and I think the author was “spot on” in his analysis. How can you possibly say that America, as indicated in its policy, is not progressive? What nation is leading the complete revolutionary reform in the middle east? Jesus, it doesn’t get any more obvious than what is happening before our eyes today. 50 years of bankrupt, ineffective policy now being overturned by the US. And it is Europe that continues to treat Yasir Arafat as a deal-maker in the middle east! The US is very progressive… what have you been watching for the past two years?
Trent Lott was stupid… and he was one man… look at the Bush administration… Powell, Rice, etc… and the Democrats stalling to keep hispanic judges from joining the bench… I was pissed at santorum, and as a PA resident and conservative, I let his office know how I felt. But I am not in favor of “gay rights”… I’m in favor of “human rights”. Anyway, these two incidents do not support your assertion that American nationalism is backward-looking.
You’re wrong… except regarding the welfare state, which has destroyed many lives in the black community in the US.
So what do you think of Canada’s decision recently to probably try to get in under the missle defense system? And what does this have to do with your assertion, anyway?
The author was correct, American nationalism does not derive from past injustices committed against the US… the author clearly described by way of example how China’s nationalism differed… and he was absolutely correct.
[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]That chart. What a pile of horseshit.
America is haunted by it’s humiliation and losses in Vietnam.[/quote]
Rubbish. If so, how do you explain the US current willingness to use the military to resolve policy issues?
Nonsense. Rather than being “huanted” by the legacy of slavery, the US feels rightious in its struggle that ended slavery and in its efforts to create a society where peoples of all colors have an equal opportunity. Have we succeeded? Not entirely… but were we backward-looking as you assert, there would be no progress in race relations in the US. However, efforts have in fact been successful on many fronts… blacks in the US are not as poor as some would have you believe… black incomes have been rising over the years and blacks have succeeded in all areas of US society… I now look forward to the time when the US elects the first black president… and I hope its Condi Rice.
Which basically proves what the author stated… the US gov’t does not instill or indoctrinate Americans… but when a perceived threat from outside appears, Americans willingly and spontaniously come together.
And what the fuck are you talking about? I felt many things after 911, but “humiliation” was not one of my feelings, and I don’t know any other American who felt “humiliated”.
Not at all… that was one of the major points of the article… yes, Americans are nationalistic, but no, we don’t necessarily feel it. And another point of the article was that Americans raise flags in their gardens of their own volition and not because the government tells us to do so.
Because much of it is.
So? What has this to do with the article’s points?
Huh? Did you fail to notice that the author was Chinese? Did you fail to notice that he used an example of the PRC’s national day parade to contrast with the American 4th of July parade? I can tell you, having grown up in the US, nobody from the government or the schools ever attempted to indoctrinate me with nationalism… Are you saying that you don’t think the situation in China is different?
Are you talking about the likes of Jane Fonda and Sean Penn and Susan Saranden and her hubby and Mike Farrell and…?
And what influence did these folks have in the recent US policy in Iraq?
Huh? It was called nationalism! Read the article again! The point of the article was that Americans don’t even recognize their own nationalism!
I think you’re wrong.
Vietnam is a good example of the average Joe thinking that other nations do want to implement the US system. That’s the very reason that Vietnam left a bad taste in the mouths of so many Americans, and especially many of the soldiers who went there willingly.
Well, yes, the Taiwanese go to the US to enjoy our system, educational, economic, etc… And more people from around the world go to the US for similar reasons than go to any other nation on the planet. This particular fact doesn’t make me proud… hell, I wish many of them would stay in thier own countries. But the fact is, the US system works comparitively well… this cannot be denied, despite the fact that the system is less than perfect. I think many Americans are proud of the system, and the fact that more people immigrate to the US than anywhere else is not what makes them proud… it only confirms our belief in our system.
Why would you think we didn’t see that? The author stated that clearly and explained the reasons that other liberal democracies in Europe are not as proud of their nations as Americans are of the US. Jesus, why the condescension?
Because it makes the author’s point quite well, doesn’t it?