I am looking for a reliable analysis on the future relationship between Taiwan and Mainland China and it’s impact on the Chinese language, i.e. writing system. Will Taiwan as such still exist in a couple of years, will Mainland China take over Taiwan, will we all be writing Simplified Chinese sooner or later?
I am not looking for personal opinions.
that’s all you will find here, or anywhere, about that topic.
i can give you an impersonal opinion, if you want, but it won’t be worth as much as my personal one.
La venonta lingvo de Cxinio kaj Tajvano estos Esperanto.
(Ne dankinde.)
Within a decade there will be publications and 1 day courses on Taiwan about the more esoteric simplified characters and terms used on the mainland.
Taiwan disappear in what sense. Wonder woman’s invisible jet?
In 200 years, Taiwan will be the new Atlantis… millions of people looking for the lost Taiwanese civilization, that was once so powerful and advanced… and now vanished only to be known on ancient books…
Of course, Taiwan will disappear after all the Standing Committee of the KMT decides to flea the country…
[quote=“miso”]I am looking for a reliable analysis on the future relationship between Taiwan and Mainland China and it’s impact on the Chinese language, i.e. writing system. Will Taiwan as such still exist in a couple of years, will Mainland China take over Taiwan, will we all be writing Simplified Chinese sooner or later?
I am not looking for personal opinions.[/quote]
There is simply no way to get a “reliable” analysis on this issue. Language policy is tied to politics, including cross-strait politics. Hence, how the Chinese language issue plays out depends a great deal on what happens to the relationship between Taiwan and the Mainland.
[quote=“sjcma”]There is simply no way to get a “reliable” analysis on this issue. Language policy is tied to politics, including cross-strait politics. Hence, how the Chinese language issue plays out depends a great deal on what happens to the relationship between Taiwan and the Mainland.[/quote]I’d also point out that as far as I know, there has not been a comprehensive move in Hong Kong and Macau towards the use of simplified characters. There is certainly more usage of simplified today than in years past, mostly due to greater numbers of mainland visitors… but in all HK-only activities (including education), traditional is the standard.
So, even reunification doesn’t imply simplified characters will replace traditional in Taiwan. There are many in Taiwan who are heavily emotionally invested in the use of traditional character sets. But I would say with great confidence that if Taiwan declares independence unilaterally, simplified characters will continue to be banned (yes, banned) in Taiwan.
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“sjcma”]There is simply no way to get a “reliable” analysis on this issue. Language policy is tied to politics, including cross-strait politics. Hence, how the Chinese language issue plays out depends a great deal on what happens to the relationship between Taiwan and the Mainland.[/quote]I’d also point out that as far as I know, there has not been a comprehensive move in Hong Kong and Macau towards the use of simplified characters. There is certainly more usage of simplified today than in years past, mostly due to greater numbers of mainland visitors… but in all HK-only activities (including education), traditional is the standard.
So, even reunification doesn’t imply simplified characters will replace traditional in Taiwan. There are many in Taiwan who are heavily emotionally invested in the use of traditional character sets. But I would say with great confidence that if Taiwan declares independence unilaterally, simplified characters will continue to be banned (yes, banned) in Taiwan.[/quote]
well if Taiwan lets in tons of mainland tourists, over time they will have to acknowledge the use of simplified chinese and allow its use in taiwan (except perhaps in schools)
Chinese Characters, Chinese language, English language
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Chinese characters and the Chinese language shall continue to be used in the Taiwan area, according to the preferences of the populace.
(A) The determination of the “correct” style for writing Chinese characters shall be left up to Taiwan’s Ministry of Education, in consultation with other Taiwanese educational experts, to decide. -
English is widely taught in the Taiwanese school system as a “foreign language” or as a “second language.” In addition to Chinese, and its dialects, as well as the various aboriginal tongues, the use of English in the school system and in the society should also be encouraged.
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It shall be legal for any school to offer some portion of, or all of, its instruction in the English language, and to students of any age level.
Romanization
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The international standard for the romanization of Mandarin Chinese is Hanyu Pinyin and this is recognized by all the countries of North America, by the PRC, the United Nations, and the majority of European nations. The standard for romanization of Mandarin Chinese in the Taiwan cession shall be Hanyu Pinyin, in conformity with the United Nations standard, the USA standard, the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) standard, the PRC standard, the One China Policy, and the spirit of the three USA-PRC joint communiques.
(A) It is noted that the romanization of Chinese character data in Taiwan affects all persons who travel to the island, or who consult written reports, travel brochures, and other data about Taiwan, or who search on the internet for information about Taiwan. This is regardless of whether the persons in question actually have any degree of fluency in the Chinese language.
(B) By contrast, the style of the written Chinese characters used in Taiwan is much more of a local Taiwanese concern. Hence, the choice of writing style for Chinese characters shall be left up to the determination of Taiwan’s Ministry of Education, in consultation with other Taiwanese educational experts, to determine.
© In light of the above, romanization standards for Mandarin Chinese should be uniform throughout the Taiwan area, and should correspond to the PRC standards. -
In late 2000, the ECCT surveyed its members on the issue of romanization and found that almost every respondent supported Hanyu Pinyin. Among the comments collected (as reported in [color=darkblue]Euroview[/color] magazine) were:
(A) “The need for a practical and workable Romanization system in Taiwan would be solved by utilizing the Hanyu system, which is nearly universally used.”
(B) “If Taiwan really wants to be in the mainstream of the world, then Hanyu Pinyin should be used.”
(C.) “Everywhere in the world your first steps to learn some basic Chinese would be to learn Hanyu Pinyin. Then you arrive here in Taiwan and get lost and frustrated immediately.”
(D) “Ninety-nine percent of the world’s Chinese speakers live outside Taiwan and ninety-nine percent of these use Hanyu Pinyin.” -
There will be no strict requirement that person’s names on passports or other personal identification documents be adjusted to conform to Hanyu Pinyin however, since this would place an unreasonable burden on the populace.
(A) Nevertheless, it should be noted that for family members traveling together, problems may be encountered when the spellings of the surnames of the family members on their passports are not identical.
(B) The Ministry of Education and the Ministry of the Interior may establish a joint task force or committee to coordinate any matters related to romanization. This may be called the Taiwan-area Romanization Committee or some other appropriate title.
© The romanization standards for other Chinese dialects, aboriginal dialects, etc. shall be determined by the Taiwan-area Romanization Committee. -
With recognition of the above instructions, the standards for the romanization of Chinese names on Taiwan cession (US national, non-citizen) passports issued under United States administrative authority should be announced by the Taiwan governing authorities at an early date, including a full statement of what exceptions will be allowed, and the documentation required.
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Schools of all levels, as well as foundations, social organizations, companies, in the private sector, etc. should coordinate to change the spelling of any Chinese romanization in their names to the Hanyu Pinyin standard within six years. Preliminary applications should be filed within twelve months. Applications should be filed with the relevant central government agency or other appropriate government office. The Taiwan governing authorities
(A) may establish tables of fines for non-compliance to any announced standardization requirements,
(B) may establish a special committee to oversee the implementation of romanization standards,
© may entertain “exceptions,” or may issue waivers of these Hanyu Pinyin standardization requirements, under special circumstances, on a case by case basis, if determined to be necessary. -
The use of the thirty-seven Chinese phonetic elements, the so-called bo po mo fo, for teaching Chinese in the schools, or for indicating pronunciation in written or printed materials, may be continued. The invention of these is generally attributed to Wu Zhi-hui (1865 - 1953).
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In addition, the Taiwanese postal authorities shall promulgate a full listing of all Taiwanese place names, (including cities, counties, and other geographical units, as well as road and street names) in Hanyu Pinyin for the reference of the populace.
(A) In regard to printed materials, the Taiwanese postal authorities may establish tables of fines for non-compliance to any announced spelling standards.
To go along with what cctang said, not only has HK not taken up simplified characters, their level of Mandarin is absolutely atrocious. Ironically, even though HK and Macau have been reunited for several years now, Taiwan is much more similar linguistically to the mainland than HK or Macau. And in my uninformed personal opinion, I expect things will be roughly the same ten years from now as well.
Declaration of the Shadow Territorial Government of Formosa (cont.)
Article BR-549
So called “Taiwanese” language (Minnanhua) will follow standards, if any, established and regulated by the provincial government of Fujian.
Article NCC-1701
The use of Esperanto will be encouraged by means of educational commercials to be played before second-run movies. (Why second-run? Think about it.)
Well, it only makes sense that Taiwan is more similar linguistically “to the Mainland” (meaning to the Putonghua spoken there, or which the government would like to believe is almost universally spoken there 
) because at least there was a good deal of Mandarin spoken to begin with. Hong Kong and Macau are primarily Cantonese-speaking areas. The drive to learn Putonghua only started shortly before 1997 for most people, and it’s definitely still possible to reeeeaaally confuse petty bureaucrats by arguing with them in Mandarin, because they still can’t keep up even with a foreigner’s Mandarin.
Imagine if you suddenly said, “Everyone in Taiwan has to learn Cantonese.” (Well, something pretty much like that was done back in 1949, but you get what I mean. Taiwan would be “behind” Hong Kong and Macau for sure if it were a matter of learning to speak Cantonese and write Cantonese using simplified characters, rather than simply using simplified characters for a dialect already widely spoken.)
The problem is that people use language to show their identity. The government can dictate all it likes, and might succeed in getting, say, official documents written in Language x or Language y, but in the marketplace, people will speak what they want and use language as they like.
[quote=“Hartzell”]
(D) “Ninety-nine percent of the world’s Chinese speakers live outside Taiwan and ninety-nine percent of these use Hanyu Pinyin.”[/quote]
I think this “statistic” needs some work.
[quote=“Hartzell”]
4. With recognition of the above instructions, the standards for the romanization of Chinese names on Taiwan cession (US national, non-citizen) passports issued under United States administrative authority should be announced by the Taiwan governing authorities at an early date, including a full statement of what exceptions will be allowed, and the documentation required.[/quote]
Hehe…for a second there, I actually thought that this long piece was the position of the MOE, which surprised me by its active promotion of English and Hanyu Pinyin. But it all makes sense now, this is just a pie-in-the-sky wish list of a non-existent political entity under a fairy-tale scenario advocated by the author.
Could you elaborate on this? I’m curious.
Similarly, traditional characters are banned on the mainland unless it’s considered “calligraphy” or in the publication of wenyan (classical Chinese). However, the language police has not been all that effective in cracking down on traditional characters in southern China, esp. Guangdong province.
Having language police is not all that uncommon; we have them here in Canada.
Could you elaborate on this? I’m curious.[/quote]
I admit it, I hate simplified characters.
I actually find them useful when I have to handwrite something.
Could you elaborate on this? I’m curious.[/quote]
Many Taiwanese insist with true emotional/religious belief that “simplified” characters are bastardized, corrupt versions of true Chinese. It’s much more than just a preference or convenience issue for them. There are many in Taiwan who hold true to the perception that the Communists “destroyed” Chinese culture while Taiwan preserves it. They’re probably right, in a sense.
I couldn’t tell you exactly where/who/what advocates this point of view in Taiwan, but I’m reasonably sure it originated with the CKS/KMT days.
[quote=“sjcma”][quote=“Hartzell”]
(D) “Ninety-nine percent of the world’s Chinese speakers live outside Taiwan and ninety-nine percent of these use Hanyu Pinyin.”[/quote]
I think this “statistic” needs some work.
[/quote]The number seems about right to me. Well, maybe we should tweak the numbers so that it’s closer to… 97%, or maybe even 98%. But the scale is about correct.
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“sjcma”][quote=“Hartzell”]
(D) “Ninety-nine percent of the world’s Chinese speakers live outside Taiwan and ninety-nine percent of these use Hanyu Pinyin.”[/quote]
I think this “statistic” needs some work.
[/quote]The number seems about right to me. Well, maybe we should tweak the numbers so that it’s closer to… 97%, or maybe even 98%. But the scale is about correct.[/quote]
I’m not questioning the scale, but rather the accuracy of the number. Even if every single Chinese person in the PRC uses HYPY, it’s still not 99%. As well, given the amount of people that are illiterate and those that grew up without being taught any sort of romanization schemes, the second 99% is even more suspect.