Biological warfare ?
oh you mean this
lol
Yes, and perhaps he wasnât. Rabbits can take over an area and wreak havok on the ecosystem in some areas. They can destroy vegetation and cause lots of problems for the rest of the food chain as well.
There are legitimate alternatives and a few of them were pointed out clearly in this thread. The issue is not the lack of alternatives. Itâs the lack of education.
marboulette
I didnât really see too many reasonable alternatives.
StrayDog suggested sterilization and reintroduction then there was the suggestion of live traps. I honestly donât think they offer a reasonable alternative to an eradication program. Look at your own country, I seriously doubt anyone would entertain the idea of packs of feral dogs wondering the wilderness of Mt Cook, the Rockies, or Grampians, would they? Would they allow the dogs to continue to roam on the basis of a sterilization program? It doesnât add up.
My point remains that the dogs are a problem and the farmers take action to counter that problem as best they can. I donât believe they are trapping the animals for any other reason then to protect their property from packs of stray dogs. The government offers them little support and the general population tacitly supports a feral dog and cat population that reflects the worst aspect of a man-animal relationshipâneglect and shunned responsibility.
I might have trapped animals, but I also knew a shit load about looking after them and living alongside them.
The issue here is that the farmers probably know what they are on about as far as their stewardship goes but on a societal level an abyss in understanding exists.
I encourage Animals Taiwan in their work. Iâm not being disparaging. Iâm just saying the problem seems to be getting worse not better. It might be time to look at root causes rather than focusing on distractions. No good will come of maligning a practice for its cruelty when it might well be brutality that is required.
Brutality (killing) hasnât worked anywhere else; itâs produced more stray animals. Why do you think it will work here?
I think the numbers (which I donât have) will disagree with you. You said so yourself that they are all but gone in central areas.
Fucking townies, we used to call it.
As for âlegitimate alternatives?â Not for the peasants doing the killings. They are not even REMOTELY interested, for the most part, in what a bunch of city dwellers think of them and their methods. They want rid of the dogs â most of which were dumped there by those self-same city knobs in the first place. Now. Cheap or for free. That means poison or gin traps. Give them an alternative and some might take it. Most wonât, if it involves something as irritating as making a few phone calls and waiting around for some workmen to show up. You can pick up enough poison or a dozen gintraps in two minutes when you pop down to the village for your smokes. Thatâs what youâre competing against.
Those guys are absolutely and totally unmoved by your angst and your âoh, how cruel and heartless! You donât deserve to be humans!â
âFuck it, theyâre just dogs, ya daft city knobs! Kill 'em quick and kill 'em cheap. More move in? Kill 'em quick and kill 'em cheap. I 'aint got NO time for fucking about waiting for some joker to come up here with a net or whatever, take 'em away and then? BRING THE LITTLE BASTARDS BACK? You have GOTTA be SHITTING me! I donât give a ratâs ass if they breed or not. Pups are easier to kill than adults. Not a problem.â
Both traps work. One doesnât hurt the dog and the other mutilates the dog. I donât understand why you do not consider live traps to be reasonable alternatives.
In other words, people like that are assholes who mutilate stray dogs for no good reason. Sums it up pretty good.
marboulette
I agree with Fox and Sandman regarding their insights into the farmers circumstances and their questions regarding solutions to the problem. I as well grew up on a farm, and as well we also had an issues with stray dogs coming on our property stealing chickens, killing baby goats, pigs etc. and while we did not kill most of the dogs, we did however change out our pellets on our 20 gauge shotgun shells to salt shot and this would deter all but the most stubborn (or hungry) of dogs to stay off our property. And for the wild dogs that didnât mind getting some salt shot in their ass, I was required to spend the night awaiting the dog, but instead salt-shot I would use a rifle to ensure accuracy which inturn ensured no suffering. And for those of you who will blast me for being cruel, please tell me what other options we had⌠I lived in the country, no government support, and the pack of wild dogs could easily dessimate a lot of our food in one night. I understand your concerns and I to believe that the trapping methods are cruel, but what are these farmers suppossed to do?? There are no guns and there isnât government assistance in many of these rural areas. Do you think poisoning is better? Spay/neuter, yeah right, that will keep future dogs away, but what to do with the current problem?
Instead of attacking the farmers, you should find concrete ways to work with them in eliminating the problem.
For you, maybe. For THEM, they have what for them is a very, very, very good reason â those animals are goddamn pests, no different from roaches or mosquitoes. Their friends, acquaintances and neighbours agree. Their opinions of rich busybodies from down in the city with too much time on their hands? Canât be printed here, probably.
Iâm not saying thatâs right or wrong (although I can see both sides). What I AM saying is that that IS the mindset youâre dealing with a lot of the time. What I AM saying is that its all very well to get all touchy-feely on the TVBS news with a government official swearing that his gang will eradicate gin traps in return for a nice primetime news spot at dinnertime for the city folks.
Iâd like to see 'em doing that announcement up around the fruit farms at ShangBalin, for example, or some other rural area. Hopefully theyâd get out with nothing worse than a few choice Taiwanese insults ringing in their ears as they scurry back to their jeeps and trucks and back to the safety of Grandma Nittis and Swensens or whatever.
Fact is, You and these animal rescue dudes, and many city dwellers, think its âcruel.â FACT is, the people doing it DONâT see animal treatment as either cruel or not cruel. Itâs just a thing you do to get rid of a pest, no more or less cruel than leaving a rat on a stick board or a roach in a poisoned roach hotel, and if you want to change their ways, getting some government dweeb to grin for the camera and make empty promises on TV to a bunch of damn hippies and city slickers is NOT the way to win hearts and minds.
Spot on Mr. Sandman, it couldnât have been said better.
That would be a fence, then.
That would be a fence, then.[/quote]
Can you build a fence cheaper than, say buying two pounds of Warfarin?
Plus, the dogs will be on one side of the fence or the other. What about the bloke who ends up on the side with the dogs? Maybe heâll buy the leftover Warfarin from the fenced-in bloke, eh?
They built a fence across Australia to keep the dogs out so itâs not that hard, but it doesnât work so well against camels.
And itâs made from Gripples.
We had the fences, barbed wire, electric and all, but dogs are a smart bunch and they will quickly find a way around any physical barriers you put up. You cats just donât understand farmer culture!
Fences only make for good neighbors, much as locks only keep your friends out!
For you, maybe. For THEM, they have what for them is a very, very, very good reason â those animals are goddamn pests, no different from roaches or mosquitoes. Their friends, acquaintances and neighbours agree. Their opinions of rich busybodies from down in the city with too much time on their hands? Canât be printed here, probably.
Iâm not saying thatâs right or wrong (although I can see both sides). What I am saying is that that IS the mindset youâre dealing with a lot of the time. What I am saying is that its all very well to get all touchy-feely on the TVBS news with a government official swearing that his gang will eradicate gin traps in return for a nice primetime news spot at dinnertime for the city folks.
Iâd like to see 'em doing that announcement up around the fruit farms at ShangBalin, for example, or some other rural area. Hopefully theyâd get out with nothing worse than a few choice Taiwanese insults ringing in their ears as they scurry back to their jeeps and trucks and back to the safety of Grandma Nittis and Swensens or whatever.
Fact is, You and these animal rescue dudes, and many city dwellers, think its âcruel.â FACT is, the people doing it DONâT see animal treatment as either cruel or not cruel. Itâs just a thing you do to get rid of a pest, no more or less cruel than leaving a rat on a stick board or a roach in a poisoned roach hotel, and if you want to change their ways, getting some government dweeb to grin for the camera and make empty promises on TV to a bunch of damn hippies and city slickers is NOT the way to win hearts and minds.[/quote]
A grew up with hicks. I was raised by them. My uncle across the lake from us would shoot any cat that got on his property. Shot a neighborsâs cat at least twice that I know of. My old man shot my own dog in the head with a hunting rifle(not in my presence). My stepfather killed a litter of kittens with a shovel. Your previous post was clear enough. I didnât need any clarifications as I am well accustomed to the mindset you mention, both here and back home. This takes us back to Fox:
Well, there is is. In your face. The mindset.
Edit: The farmers are often trapping abandoned dogs that are just desperate to find shelter and food. The dogs are abandoned by people whose âvaluesâ and mindset are very similar to that of the farmers. Iâm hearing circus musicâŚ
marboulette
[quote]Brutality (killing) hasnât worked anywhere else; itâs produced more stray animals. Why do you think it will work here?
[/quote]
It seems inhumane to me to breed out a population of neglected animals. Letâs just let them die of starvation. The issue is neglect. Thatâs why they are in the mountains in the first place. I know you understand that. Killing in and of itself is not an inhumane act. Plus, it doesnât solve the immediate problem for the farmers nor does it help local native fauna. It is patently absurd to start catching and spading dogs in Neihu Tech. Park for a re release program.
If you are catching them put them down and be done with it.
In the jungle areas, it makes perfect sense to cull them all, if they are strays. They are a serious road hazard why would you reintroduce a serious road hazard.
I donât get it. Letâs see the study that says reintroducing stray dogs to roadside areas reduces road fatalities.
When you mentioned shunned responsibilities, you did not consider that treating animal in a humane way was a responsibility on its own, obviously.
Also, this talk about CNR versus culling is off topic. Unless you support using fucking gin traps to catch the dogs before you cull them or do whatever you want with themâŚ
marboulette