I have read on a few other threads about how the people being held in Gitmo are enemy combatants and are not even American so they do not have to be afforded the same rights under the US constitution (at least I am pretty sure I read something like that).
Anyway here are a number of people who have been picked up and detained in America. A large number were American citizens and were held in the federal prison system. A number have been released with apologies.(Oops we’re sorry for throwing you in jail fo the past month, you can go now).
Add to this the case of Jose Padilla, an American citizen who has been held for over three years without a trial or charges being laid makes me wonder about the direction things are going. Does calling someone a terrorist or claiming they are involved in terrorism mean that their civil rights go out the window?
Stop hyperventilating. Jose Padilla deserves to be in prison. That is one in 300 million. Okay. Got us there.
Also, you may be curious to note that the French government has been detainining people for up to THREE YEARS on suspicion of terrorism without trial. Did you know that? hmmm?
Don’t worry. A few snags may hit the system but that has always been the case. Not nice for those who are arrested and imprisoned for rape for 20 years and then released when new DNA evidence is made available either. Not perfect and we must do more to minimize the injustices but there you are.
Also, remember that for all the Gitmo and Guantanamo talk, this is the norm. Remember that during the Cold War, Russian agents and spies were held without trial for years until a trade off could be arranged. THAT is all in accordance with the Geneva Convention. During WWII, agents and saboteurs were just shot.
[quote=“fred smith”]Stop hyperventilating. Jose Padilla deserves to be in prison. That is one in 300 million. Okay. Got us there.
Also, you may be curious to note that the French government has been detainining people for up to THREE YEARS on suspicion of terrorism without trial. Did you know that? hmmm?
Don’t worry. A few snags may hit the system but that has always been the case. Not nice for those who are arrested and imprisoned for rape for 20 years and then released when new DNA evidence is made available either. Not perfect and we must do more to minimize the injustices but there you are.
Also, remember that for all the Gitmo and Guantanamo talk, this is the norm. Remember that during the Cold War, Russian agents and spies were held without trial for years until a trade off could be arranged. THAT is all in accordance with the Geneva Convention. During WWII, agents and saboteurs were just shot.[/quote]
Cut the crap, Fred. The USA is in violation of the GC.
He may deserve to be in prison but he also deserves to be charged and brought to trial. Also apparently a number of the people that were picked up under the Material Witness Act did not deserve to be picked up and held. A number even received an apology which seems a little weak.
Fred Smith wrote
Yes I did know that. My question is why does this make American civil liberty abuses okay? I am always amazed by the argument that someone else is doing the same thing and that somehow makes it okay. It reminds me of little children when they get caught doing something and cry out “Johnny did it too”
Fred Smith wrote
I am not sure if this example actually fits. In your example the person was imprisoned on a mistake. The cases cited by HRW and the Padilla case are not a mistake. They are a deliberate action to imprison people without charge or trial.
Fred Smith wrote
First of all, this case has nothing to do with Guantanamo. It has to do with American citizens being imprisoned without charge or trial.
These Russian agents that were held for years without trial, who were they? Were they Russians or Americans? Was there any sort of tribunal to determine if they were indeed spies? What exactly were they caught doing that made them spies? Where were they picked up? Who could we trade these American citizens for? Again, because it was done before does that make it right?
Most of the people that this post is about are not agents or saboteurs so I am not sure if this example fits.
Agents and saboteurs in World War II were given trials by the U.S., so Fred is wrong on that account as well.
In the UK, they had secret trial proceedings – German spies’ identities were often taken over by others who continued to transmit false information back to Nazi Germany. The Germans were fooled into thinking they had a thriving network in the UK when, in actuality, all had either been flipped (working for the Brits) or hanged.
In the United States, other spies were caught out and put on trial – some secretly, some not too secretly. Out of the Long Island saboteurs (dropped off at Amangansett by a U-boat and also down on a beach in Florida), two of the 8 survived the war based on their cooperation with prosecutors.
I sometimes wonder if Bush apologists are ever going to get their facts right.
Agents and saboteurs were given what kind of trial exactly? appearance before a military tribunal? and if that was acceptable then, why is it not acceptable at Guantanamo now? The prisoners in Guantanamo have had their cases heard before military tribunals.
Second, I am not saying that because France does it that it is okay that the US does it. What I am trying to show is that there are very real security concerns that sometimes are allowed to trump these questions of individual rights. This has happened frequently during war time or during emergencies. My point is that is happening today is no where near the level that would warrant the hysteria of the left, nor is it particularly noteworthy either from a view of international norms or our own nation’s history.
Naturally, I do understand and accept that a certain amount of monitoring and scrutiny are needed and even to be welcomed, but that is not what is happening for the most part. This is just being used as a club by those who dislike or disapprove of Bush and his policies to beat him in a haphazard fashion that would appear to have very little to do with the supposed “concerns” that many of these individuals claim to have.
[quote=“Tigerman”]Happy to see that you agree with me that some facts can be wrong or false.
Some people actually believe that a “fact” must be “true”.
That’s funny, isn’t it? [/quote]
Is that a fact?
Hows the afternoon haze on the river?
Dog days of summer.
I have just returned from a ten day visit to the US and I am very pleased to report that not a one of my civil liberties was abused in any way.
I moved about freely and with ease and did as I pleased while in the US (Detroit and Pittsburgh, specifically).
While in Pittsburgh, I attended a baseball game and shopped for various items at various stores. I went to the races on a Friday night at the local track and met the US national champion concrete pumper. I had lunch one day with my old high school girlfriend and her daughter, who travelled unencumbered/unrestricted to Pittsburgh from Florida, to see me. I went to the Sharp Edge Beer Emporium and drank several pints of wonderful microbrewed ales. I went to the hospital for my yearly exam and walked right in through the emergency room exit, right past the elderly guard at the door, who smiled and greeted me with a friendly “good morning”.
I drove all over the place and went through the Detroit and Pittsburgh airports and never once felt that my civil liberties were in any way threatened by or exposed to abuse of any kind.
Maybe when I return to Pittsburgh in August I’ll look more closely for such abuses. I’ll be certain to report any abuses that I do find.
Let us know before you go on your next trip so that someone can tip of the authorities.
That should give you a much better insight into any (possible) abuses and provide us actually with an informed and thus meaningful report than the one you provided above.
[quote=“Rascal”]Let us know before you go on your next trip so that someone can tip of the authorities.
That should give you a much better insight into any (possible) abuses and provide us actually with an informed and thus meaningful report than the one you provided above.[/quote]
Tip them off in what way? Are you implying that it would be helpful to lie to the officials and indicate falsely that I am in some way transgressing the laws of the United States? If yes, then would you not expect the officials to take the time and effort to scrutinize my arrival and activities? In the past you have been critical of US officials’ efforts to secure the safety of the US given imperfect knowledge of intended offenses.
As such, I do not understand how providing false facts regarding myself to the authorities would allow me to provide a more “informed” and “meaningful” report re US civil liberties?
I do not understand your point above, if you have one.
In fact, I do not understand at all why you believe that lying to the officials regarding my intents would result in my being able to provide “much better insights into (possible) abuses” of my civil liberties. :s
[quote=“Tigerman”]Tip them off in what way? Are you implying that it would be helpful to lie to the officials and indicate falsely that I am in some way transgressing the laws of the United States?
If yes, then would you not expect the officials to take the time and effort to scrutinize my arrival and activities?[/quote]
Something like that - then at least then you could be in a similar situation to what has been described in the OP’s post, or did you see him mentioning that civil liberty abuses are taking place while visiting basketball games, travelling or drinking beer?
Is this relevant in any way?
[quote]As such, I do not understand how providing false facts regarding myself to the authorities would allow me to provide a more “informed” and “meaningful” report re US civil liberties?
I do not understand your point above, if you have one.[/quote]
My point is that your little story is meaningless because it does not even remotely compare to what the article mentions.
I mean I am sure you had a nice holiday and enjoyed yourself, but Jose Padilla for example is not exactly on a vacation, is he?
If you were put into such a situation you would obviously have first-hand knowledge that you could then share with us, no (provided they give you access to forumosa from your cell)? And that would prove to be more valuable then the above story that is probably better suited to the Travel Forum than as a response on the topic of this thread. Of course the latter is just my opinion only.
Now, if he’d tried to get into a taxpayer-funded public meeting about social security having arrived in a car with a bumpersticker that could be interpreted as being against a completely different Bush policy, THAT would be enough.
[quote]The Denver Three’s quest: to learn the identity of the “Mystery Man” who, impersonating a Secret Service agent, forcibly removed them from a taxpayer-funded Social Security event with President Bush three months ago because of a “No More Blood for Oil” bumper sticker on one of their cars.
It started when the three got tickets to Bush’s March 21 Social Security town hall meeting in Colorado. They flirted with protesting at the event and wore “Stop the Lies” T-shirts underneath their business attire. But Weise worried about getting arrested.
Even so, they were identified after they arrived as potential troublemakers, and then forcefully removed by a man who, they had been told, was a Secret Service agent. Only later did they learn that the man wasn’t an agent at all. The Secret Service launched an investigation (it’s a crime to impersonate a law enforcement official), and the agency and the White House have both learned the impostor’s identity – but they’re not talking.
The White House says that’s bunk. But a series of similar events have left the administration vulnerable to such charges. In February, a Bush spokesman blamed an “overzealous volunteer” for a 42-person blacklist used at a Bush event in North Dakota. Complaints have also come this year from New Hampshire and Arizona… .[/quote]
Interesting that despite the obvious security implications, the Bush administration appears absolutely unwilling to pursue this matter involving someone impersonating a Secret Service officer at an event where Bush was about to appear. Instead, filled with their petty partisan hatreds, they would rather ignore a massive violation of federal law in order to ensure that Americans who might disagree with the president are not allowed into a public, taxpayer-funded meeting.
[quote=“Tigerman”]I have just returned from a ten day visit to the US and I am very pleased to report that not a one of my civil liberties was abused in any way.
I moved about freely and with ease and did as I pleased while in the US (Detroit and Pittsburgh, specifically).
While in Pittsburgh, I attended a baseball game and shopped for various items at various stores. I went to the races on a Friday night at the local track and met the US national champion concrete pumper. I had lunch one day with my old high school girlfriend and her daughter, who travelled unencumbered/unrestricted to Pittsburgh from Florida, to see me. I went to the Sharp Edge Beer Emporium and drank several pints of wonderful microbrewed ales. I went to the hospital for my yearly exam and walked right in through the emergency room exit, right past the elderly guard at the door, who smiled and greeted me with a friendly “good morning”.
I drove all over the place and went through the Detroit and Pittsburgh airports and never once felt that my civil liberties were in any way threatened by or exposed to abuse of any kind.
Maybe when I return to Pittsburgh in August I’ll look more closely for such abuses. I’ll be certain to report any abuses that I do find.[/quote]
Are you claiming that since you did not experience any abuses that they are in fact not occurring? If that is not your point then I don’t really understand what point you are trying to make. Could you please explain it a bit further?
Do you agree that civil liberty abuses are happening or do you think they are not happening?
Post-war interviews of German citizens in which they claimed that the process of Nazification happened so gradually that they really believed they were free people the whole time from 1933-45, not truly realizing what had happened to themselves and their society until it all collapsed.
haha Spook. Which satire Web site did you get this off of? I can assure you 100 percent that not one of my relatives believed that they were “free” in any way. Oh my goodness, Hitler was a surprise! We didn’t know what was going on! We were just following orders! Give me a break. I have not laughed this hard since Schroeder and Fischer talked about international law and ethics!
The truth is that Weimar was a very weak and poor example of a democracy that most viewed as chaotic and corrupt. Therefore, I think it can be said that the German people had never lived in any kind of democracy where thinking outside the box was considered good. It was not rewarded unless it was within the dictates of a scientific lab but socially and politically, Germany was and in many respects still is a very rigid class-based society. That is why there is such arrogance at the top and such seething resentment below. That, I think, accounts for the fierce passion which Germans throw themselves into “isms.” Today, the focus of their rebellions is militant pacificism and militant environmentalism. Today, Germany is in fact a democracy and it is one precisely because the society was so completely destroyed in World War II. The democracy that you see in Germany today was a gift mostly of the Americans but also to a small extent to the British. It has nothing to do with the French who wanted to plow up the cities and turn Germany into a great agricultural pasture.
Ergo: Germans knew full well that they were not living in a democracy and they did not care. For many of them, following a strong man was what they openly wanted. They were fed up with the weakness and vacillation and instability of life in the Weimar republic. Read Erich Fromm’s “Escape from Freedom” and you will get a comprehensive view of the psychological motivations that people have when trading freedom for stability.
BUT I want to reiterate that if Germans and Japanese could become civilized and democratic, why not the Arabs? Persians? Chinese? We have even seen Taiwan become a democracy. Why not China? Why not Afghanistan? Why not Iraq? Why not Iran? Why not Syria? Why not Palestine? Perhaps, incredibly even one day the toughest nut of all may democratize: Saudi Arabia. Who knows? But if we don’t try, we obviously won’t get any closer to seeing those positive outcomes come to fruition.
“Among the many books written on Germany after the collapse of Hitler’s Thousand Year Reich, this book by Milton Mayer is one of the most readable and most enlightening.”–Hans Kohn, New York Times Book Review
“It is a fascinating story and a deeply moving one. And it is a story that should make people pause and think–think not only about the Germans, but also about themselves.”–Ernest S. Pisko, Christian Science Monitor
[quote=“Gilgamesh”]
Do you agree that civil liberty abuses are happening or do you think they are not happening?[/quote]
are you suggesting that civil liberties abuses in the us are more frequent now than they were during the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s, 50’s, 40’s, 30’s, 20’s, teens?
[quote=“Flipper”][
are you suggesting that civil liberties abuses in the us are more frequent now than they were during the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s, 50’s, 40’s, 30’s, 20’s, teens?[/quote]
Not at all. I am suggesting that right now people are being incarcerated without charge or trial. I think this is wrong.
[/quote]
I’ll be certain to report any abuses that I do find.