[quote=“TheLostSwede”]And what majority? If people so opposed the way things are done, how come the KMT won the elections outright? It seems to me that people can’t be so much against it as it wasn’t as they were hiding their agenda during the elections.
Besides, what was agreed upon is for the benefit of Taiwan more than anything else.
I understand that a lot of people here have a hard time accepting dealings with China after everything that has happened, as it’s less than 80 years ago it all went down and a lot of people still have bad memories, but as you were saying, we’re living in a different time now and it seems like some of your “friends” are forgetting this as well.[/quote]Well, as far as the KMT winning the elections their victory was probably more of a vote against the DPP than anything. THe KMT platform was almost exclusively based on the first family being crooks and the economy being so bad people couldn’t take it any longer. Exactly how much of that is actually true is yet to be determined. And certainly the one and only cure for the economy was getting closer to China, so the fact that they are moving full speed ahead with that is not a surprise to anybody. Yet, Ma’s low approval ratings indicate that people don’t like how he is going about it - including many of the blue camp in the same way that many in the green camp were disillusioned with Chen and the DPP before the elections. My personal opinion is that it’s a combination of Ma creating too much of a gray area regarding the sovereignty issue to give himself room to negotiate in combination with the fact that most people don’t see Ma as being in control of the deeper blue elements of his party who are more than happy to pursue a Greater China that Taiwan is an ingegrated part of. There’s an element of uncertainty about what will exist when the backroom meetings are done and the fog clears.
Regardless of whether it’s the KMT or DPP in power it comes down to a matter of one party being in a position to unilaterally push their agenda. Right now it’s a matter of party to party negotiations between the KMT and the CCP. If Ma was really smart he would try to reach out to some of the moderate DPP members to assure them that certain lines will not be crossed in the process. But I doubt he’s going to reach out and even if he did it would probably be more personal opinion than anything he could actually assure.
[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]Ah, not true. Here’s just one instance from Shih Ming-te’s protest.
Quote:
Some 15,000 police and security officers were mobilised to maintain order and barbed wire barricades prevented protesters from approaching the presidential complex.[/quote]
That was a much bigger protest. 1.5 million people. [/quote]
There were never, ever 1.5 million people at any of those red mob protests. Maybe a couple of hundred thousand at the very most, but more likely in just the tens of thousands even at their absolute peak.
I’m not trying to defend the KMT or Ma’s politics here, I’m just saying.
But I guess you’re right TaipeiDawg, the KMT’s win was at least partially because of people shying away from the DPP.
It happens in every country when there are elections and one side have been running things for too long without any major change.
I wouldn’t want to see a unification with China, it’s not something I think is right for Taiwan, but that doesn’t mean that I’m opposed to the two talking and trying to become a bit friendlier towards each other.
And on another note, has hatred and violence ever brought forth something good in the world?
It would be interesting to see what people’s opinion here would be if someone from Taiwan went to China and the same kind of things that have been happening here would happen to that person there. I doubt anyone here would defend the Chinese people for doing what the Taiwanese are doing here.
I guess the excuse would be that it’s not the same situation, but ho hum…
But the dip in Ma’s approval rating has very little to do with cross-strait policy and everything to with the bleak economic situation and especially the plunge in the stock market. No leader anywhere in the world ever gets a high approval rating during a time when a very large proportion of the people have suddenly become a great deal poorer.
All of the agreements that the Ma administration has made with China thus far were all on the DPP’s own agenda under Chen, but they never got very far because Chen’s stupid anti-China belligerence made it impossible for the two sides to sit down together, talk and conclude agreements in the way that P.K. Chiang and Chen Yunlin have been able to since May 20.
The Mainland Affairs Council has been conducting regular public opinion polls on cross-state relations for many years, including under the DPP administration. Those polls have always consistently shown a substantial majority in favour of cross-strait talks, direct cross-strait transport, and the other elements of progress that have been achieved during the past five months.
Even excrement was hurled at the police. Now that’s below the belt if you ask me. 
You can at least see a molotov cocktail flying through the air, but having a plastic bag full of shite splashing on your head is not playing by street protesting rules.
I hear this a lot but you have to remember he’s only been in power for 5 months. Being new to democracy, people in Taiwan seem to expect that everything that was promised will happen overnight. I don’t know about other democracies, but in Australia at least, it’s usually considered that it’ll take at least 6-12 months for a new govt’s policies to start showing progress (or failure). I suspect that’s also why his approval rating is 20% - because people expect overnight results. If there’s no progress by the 1st quarter next year or so, then yes, you can say he’s not fulfilling promises and is a failure. Until then, I think the jury is still out. Even if Hsieh had won, the general economic situation for Taiwan would probably be about the same and Hsieh would probably have an approval rating of 20%.
And if the situation would reversed, I’d be equally as critical.
Don’t forget that this weeks talks have resulted in a deal on cargo flights which was one of the main criticisms about the first agreement on direct flights.
MM - The above is not necessarily directed at you, I’m just using your quote to outline my point.
The protests got a bit out of control but that was a result of the KMT’s decision to use 7000 police officers from day one of Chen Yun-Lin’s visit. The police’s decision to forcefully take flags from protesters was an unwise decision. In a democratic country, there is no justification for this type of behavior. For example, what’s wrong with a few protesters standing on a freeway overpass displaying the Taiwanese flag and a few signs showing their disagreement with the decisions of the government? Although I do not condone violence in any form, I honestly believe the protests would have gone smoothly had the KMT government decided against spending millions and millions of our tax money in setting up such a big show of force.
A little off topic here, but I think a lot of people have missed a major point of the issues between Taiwan and China. Let’s not forget that China has hundreds of missiles pointed at Taiwan at all times, threatening the safety of everyone here. How can there be negotiations on trade and other topics if they continue to point missiles at the Taiwanese? This is like someone holding a gun to your head and asking you to negotiate.
Most of the KMT have conveniently forgotten this issue. I respect Wang Jing-Pin for his courage in bringing up this issue in his meeting with Chen Yun-Lin. Negotiations should be made without the threat of force.
The police just started to remove forcefully the students that are “violently protesting” (seating and chanting “peace”)…
they use female officers at the beginning, but when they couldn’t the male officers came in to push the kids away… riot police is there surrounding the kids, as they might go crazy…
and tomorrow is saturday…
the sitters did not register for their gathering, hence the forced dispersion
did the Red Army got permission for all their actions? Don’t think so…
How many laws did the police broke in the last days?
- Allowing the PRC flag to be waved
- Desecration of the ROC flag
- Receiving a high official of the CCP
- Forcefully removing private property without any justification
I thought everyone knew that in Taiwan, there are two standards when viewing everything. If you are not a member of the ruling political party, everything you do is unlawful, corrupt and evil, but if you are a member of the ruling party and you do those same things, it is considered to be lawful, money well spent and looking out for the best interests of the people. This is true regardless of whether it is a blue or green government.
The Red Army could do anything it wanted because Ma was the mayor of Taipei and he wouldn’t send in 7000 police officers to break up a protest that would benefit him!!!
[quote]
And I didn’t say you said I didn’t… did… didn’t… I’d like to go hiking with you so I can berate you on your blinkered green attitude. [/quote]
Hey…I’d volunteer for that, if you buy the beer.
Michael
yeah, let us all go and discuss politics on a hiking trail…
Sounds like a valid point, but how likely is it that the missiles are fired should the negotiations fail? I would say ZERO. China would never start a war if there is the slightest chance of peaceful progress in the direction of coming closer together. They can’t afford a war and they can’t afford Taiwan declaring independence.
And a shiv in the other. 
[quote=“Omniloquacious”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
Ma’s approval rating is around 20%.
[/quote]
But the dip in Ma’s approval rating has very little to do with cross-strait policy and everything to with the bleak economic situation and especially the plunge in the stock market. No leader anywhere in the world ever gets a high approval rating during a time when a very large proportion of the people have suddenly become a great deal poorer.
All of the agreements that the Ma administration has made with China thus far were all on the DPP’s own agenda under Chen, but they never got very far because Chen’s stupid anti-China belligerence made it impossible for the two sides to sit down together, talk and conclude agreements in the way that P.K. Chiang and Chen Yunlin have been able to since May 20.
The Mainland Affairs Council has been conducting regular public opinion polls on cross-state relations for many years, including under the DPP administration. Those polls have always consistently shown a substantial majority in favour of cross-strait talks, direct cross-strait transport, and the other elements of progress that have been achieved during the past five months.[/quote]
Well, if you are going to try to put things in context you should try not to leave most of the events of the last 6 months out: the threats to Japan; the piss poor response to the stock market crash and the flooding, the tourists numbers that never came; the pull back on campaign promises to improve the economy (unless one can wait till 2016); the suspicious suppression of government media outlets; the downgrading of sovereignty; and in my neighborhood the gondola fiasco. The melamine scandal is only the most recent and so it is fresh on people’s mind that the Ma admin shows more concern for protecting China’s feelings and business interests than public health. The level of mistrust they generated with this will take a long time to go away.
So enter the Chen Yunlin talks when the public waryness of both Ma and China is at a height. And again, what does the admin do to sooth over the opposition? Hold debates with Tsai Yin Wen? Address the nation? No, they arrest and sentence Wang Ding-wu in record time and then throw a security blanket over the town.
In the abstract, I’m glad the meeting led to direct links. After Chinese negotiators refused to discuss cargo links last summer I was wary. I still am of course as the tourist fiasco shows that agreements don’t mean much to the Chinese. It all comes down to cooperation which is risky with the Chinese; and what has the last year taught us about risk?
I will wait to see how these play out before I declare it a great day for Taiwan. In the first place, I am used to seeing how a smaller country gets shafted by a larger one in agreements: ie, Canada by the US. And this is when there are legal mechanisms to deal with disputes. Taiwan and China have no such mechanisms, and in any case, China, even more so than the US, would simply ignore them if it was not in their interest to obey.
In the second place, it is going to be years before we see any benefits. Direct cargo links are pretty meaningless with exports dropping, and there is little likelihood of companies rushing to set up headquarters in Taiwan under the current economic downturn.
So, great effort guys, only this is not really what you should be focusing on now is it?
To borrow a line often used by the PRC government:
“President Ma hurt the feelings of the Taiwanese people!”
Weeks before this visit even happened, a very planned decision was made to put the feelings of Chen Yunlin, and what might possibly offend him, above the feelings of the Taiwanese people.
When Taiwanese turned on their televisions the other day and saw their own police taking away R.O.C. flags from their countrymen, they were outraged; and rightly so. They were following the orders they had been given. Everything that happened subsequently is entirely the fault of the KMT for prioritizing the feelings of a representative of a foreign power above their own people. True colors are shining through on this one; who do you love?
Huangdi Dian would be my choice for a good hike, piss up, political bash. This section would do just right. Last one left standing gets to go home and claim victory on Fcom.
Are there any eye-witness accounts of police going out of their way to take flags away from people, aside from some of the more aggressive protesters? I can’t figure out why the police would do this; they don’t have orders to do so, and there are flags all over the place for Chen to see. When he met with Wang Jyn-pyng at the Legislature they had all the flags in the meeting room up as usual, and the flags left over from Double Ten are all over the roads all over the city.
As for the huge police presence, after all of the warnings of the DPP before the visit, I can understand how the got a bit paranoid. Saying the protests happened because of the police presence sounds a little like putting the cart before the horse, though.
I’m interested in the same thing regarding the flags.
You say flags were left up in some places, including meeting rooms where Chen was going to be. What about at the Grand Hotel itself? Did they really remove the ROC flag from there?
And were flags really taken from individuals who were simply walking around holding flags?