[quote=“cfimages”]When you’ve got the leader of the DPP saying she cannot guarantee the protests will be peaceful or legal, of course you’re going to get a large response from the police. Just look at what happened in Tainan when there were no police.
A much better idea would have been for the DPP to organise a mass sit-in where everyone taped their mouths shut to symbolise the lack of free speech. A completely silent protest would have sent a much stronger and more powerful message, as well as eliminated all violence.[/quote]
I know what you are saying cf, but Tsai’s statements were made after several days of excessive policing of protests. So the police excess was not in reaction to potential violent protests, but was the condition that made a bit of violence possible.
I agree that the DPP need to rethink their strategy. Both sides are replying the 80s.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]Just one question, did ANYONE watch the news last night?
No, it wasn’t what “they wanted you to see” as the same stuff was shown on all channels, be it the pro DPP or pro KMT news channels.
I wasn’t talking about the stuff that happened earlier in the day, as that seemed mostly peaceful apart from some police officer who got hit in the face by something someone threw at him, which is fairly minor.
But I guess none of what happened later on counts, so why even bother trying to talk to you people, as you’re so sure that what anyone that is of a different opinion than you are wrong.
This isn’t a matter of my opinion about what Taiwan is, it’s a matter of me not liking crazy riots.
As far as I’m concerned, Taiwan is and has always been a country. I don’t like the way a lot of things are done here, but it’s highly unlikely that any of us foreigners here can do anything about bringing about a change here.
It doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t want to see it happen, but it’s not up to us, after all, despite us living here, we’re not considered part of the nation.
And I have a feeling that if some people in the DPP got their way, we’d be on our merry way by now, but that’s just my opinion.[/quote]
How about some examples? We do have two eye witnesses from last night who did not see anything? Which means whatever violence occured was small and localized. Big deal. 99.99% of 50,000 people protest peacefully yesterday, and 100% of 500,000 protested peacefully a week ago and you want to tarnish the reputation of the Taiwanese by focusing on the actions of maybe 50 people. .01%. Why?
Yeah, the protest 2 weeks ago was perfectly calm (except for the “DPP-middle-age-guy-with-tattoes” that tried to put fire into the power stations), had a lot more people and a lot less police…
And that FTV reporter was extremely violent, for sure… he even had a weapon on his hand when he was “gently” beaten by the police…
How about you read my posts?
There weren’t 50 people, it seemed more like a few hundred people, all of them throwing things at the police.
Sure, it might’ve been a small part of the overall protesters, but this is what will end up on the international news.
I’m not trying to tarnish anyones reputation, I’m just stating what I saw on the news and what actually happened that no-one else seems to be bothered about.
Looking at your pictures, it didn’t seem like the police acted as a “threat”, as most of them seemed pretty relaxed.
I don’t know what went wrong, but something did. I’m not saying that this only happens in Taiwan, but in every country that this stuff happens, that is what is being reported on the news abroad while the peaceful part gets lost due to the fact that it’s boring in comparison to manic riots.
How about you read my posts?
There weren’t 50 people, it seemed more like a few hundred people, all of them throwing things at the police.
Sure, it might’ve been a small part of the overall protesters, but this is what will end up on the international news.
I’m not trying to tarnish anyones reputation, I’m just stating what I saw on the news and what actually happened that no-one else seems to be bothered about.
Looking at your pictures, it didn’t seem like the police acted as a “threat”, as most of them seemed pretty relaxed.
I don’t know what went wrong, but something did. I’m not saying that this only happens in Taiwan, but in every country that this stuff happens, that is what is being reported on the news abroad while the peaceful part gets lost due to the fact that it’s boring in comparison to manic riots.[/quote]
Okay, so .02% to .03% of the protesters. In other words, nothing went wrong.
The police largely were pretty relaxed because there was no threat. That doesn’t mean that their actions over the past 3 days were not provocative. Given that the majority of people in Taiwan are worried about this gov getting too close to China and that this may result in a loss of freedom, it was pretty daft, and tone-deaf for the gov to then act as if they are afraid of people exercising their freedom.
I don’t see an overarching move here to suppress the people of Taiwan. I see a government that doesn’t know what decade it is that they find themselves ruling under.
Here’s another. Washington Post, this one. Looks like the DPP were pretty successful. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/05/AR2008110502363.htmlI’d look for some more, but I got caught up in looking for further references to Chen Yunlin as “airplane head” on account of his “Elvis-style pompadour.” (Yahoo News).
I ask you, how can anyone in their right minds NOT want someone called “Airplace head” to lead their nation? Taiwanese are SO stupid.
I like the part where they say the “police said”… of course, the cops will say that “we charged people because we had orders to do so, otherwise the DPP will look too nice”… won’t they?
And they put the protests on thursday afternoon at 10K??? then the ratio was 1:1, as there was about 10K of police man also there… and at night, the ratio was 2.9:1 (cops:protesters), according to AFP and their “police sources”…
I fail to see how protests, even tinged with violence, make taiwan look bad internationally. Hell, the Tibetans burned Chinese inside their shops and still won the world’s sympathy. In fact, it’s pretty much instinctive when I hear of protests againt the government to side with the protesters. Given the world’s anger with China over tainted food I would say we are looking pretty good.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Okay, so .02% to .03% of the protesters. In other words, nothing went wrong.
The police largely were pretty relaxed because there was no threat. That doesn’t mean that their actions over the past 3 days were not provocative. Given that the majority of people in Taiwan are worried about this gov getting too close to China and that this may result in a loss of freedom, it was pretty daft, and tone-deaf for the gov to then act as if they are afraid of people exercising their freedom.
I don’t see an overarching move here to suppress the people of Taiwan. I see a government that doesn’t know what decade it is that they find themselves ruling under.[/quote]
How can you say that nothing went wrong when people were hurt in what was meant to be “peaceful” demonstrations?
I don’t understand how you can justify that answer.
Would you’ve accepted the same if this was in your country and the leader of that country was meeting with a leader from another country that they had issues with (I know this is a little more complicated than just that, but still) and people started riots because of it? What if the police wasn’t there, what would’ve happened then? I have a feeling things would’ve gotten even more out of hand and we would’ve seen torched cars and buildings on the news.
And what majority? If people so opposed the way things are done, how come the KMT won the elections outright? It seems to me that people can’t be so much against it as it wasn’t as they were hiding their agenda during the elections.
Besides, what was agreed upon is for the benefit of Taiwan more than anything else.
I understand that a lot of people here have a hard time accepting dealings with China after everything that has happened, as it’s less than 80 years ago it all went down and a lot of people still have bad memories, but as you were saying, we’re living in a different time now and it seems like some of your “friends” are forgetting this as well.
Maybe Taiwan should be split into north and south Taiwan, just like Korea with the KMT ruling the north and the DPP the south and everyone will be happy… or not.
I didn’t say they make Taiwan look bad. I said the DPP appear to have been successful – the international press seems to be reporting that there were basically violent riots over Airplane Head’s visit. Which presumably is what they were after.
Whether or not they make Taiwan look bad is in the eye of the beholder, surely.
Personally, whether some bumfuck banana republic looks bad or not is hardly of earth-shattering importance when the overwhelming international response will be: “Taiwan? What’s that then? Who gives a shit?”
Remember, people were killed recently during violent protests in Thailand. Most folks, however, didn’t give a shit about the hysterical antics of little brown people on the other side of the world. Taiwan is of even less importance that that – how many people vacation on the beaches of Taiwan, after all?
[quote=“TheLostSwede”][quote=“Muzha Man”]Okay, so .02% to .03% of the protesters. In other words, nothing went wrong.
The police largely were pretty relaxed because there was no threat. That doesn’t mean that their actions over the past 3 days were not provocative. Given that the majority of people in Taiwan are worried about this gov getting too close to China and that this may result in a loss of freedom, it was pretty daft, and tone-deaf for the gov to then act as if they are afraid of people exercising their freedom.
I don’t see an overarching move here to suppress the people of Taiwan. I see a government that doesn’t know what decade it is that they find themselves ruling under.[/quote]
How can you say that nothing went wrong when people were hurt in what was meant to be “peaceful” demonstrations?
I don’t understand how you can justify that answer.
Would you’ve accepted the same if this was in your country and the leader of that country was meeting with a leader from another country that they had issues with (I know this is a little more complicated than just that, but still) and people started riots because of it? What if the police wasn’t there, what would’ve happened then? I have a feeling things would’ve gotten even more out of hand and we would’ve seen torched cars and buildings on the news.
And what majority? If people so opposed the way things are done, how come the KMT won the elections outright? It seems to me that people can’t be so much against it as it wasn’t as they were hiding their agenda during the elections.
Besides, what was agreed upon is for the benefit of Taiwan more than anything else.
I understand that a lot of people here have a hard time accepting dealings with China after everything that has happened, as it’s less than 80 years ago it all went down and a lot of people still have bad memories, but as you were saying, we’re living in a different time now and it seems like some of your “friends” are forgetting this as well.
Maybe Taiwan should be split into north and south Taiwan, just like Korea with the KMT ruling the north and the DPP the south and everyone will be happy… or not.[/quote]
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]Here’s a prime example of the stuff ending up in the news afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jMo … eGlqxH-y-A
And that doesn’t even cover last nights much more violent riots[/quote]
Yeah, the stuff I saw later on TV was definitely pretty ‘no holds barred’. According to this article, [color=#400080]“Around 64 police were injured during the protests in various parts of Taipei which lasted till early Friday before police used water cannon to dispel a crowd of some 100 protestors”[/color]. So, yes I could believe that the vast majority of the protest was peaceful but toward the end of the night there were 100 or so thugs mixing it up pretty good with the cops for TV and had to be dispersed with water cannon. There must have been some pretty good clashes earlier as well, though, because I did see objects getting thrown and pushing/shoving while the sun was still up but it wasn’t the same level of chaos that the later videos showed.
But I’m glad I saw the posts and photos here from people who actually attended so I got a more balanced idea of what happened, because if you only watched TV last night you would think that the only thing that happened was massive violence by the DPP with Tsai Ying-Wen urging them on. That’s what my wife got out of it and I’m sure it’s what many other people did as well.
And I didn’t say you did.[/quote]
And I didn’t say you said I didn’t… did… didn’t… I’d like to go hiking with you so I can berate you on your blinkered green attitude. It would be so much more civilized doing it up to my neck in a mountain pool with a cold beer in my hand.
China is still a major human rights violator.[/quote]
So what were they then? A major brawl?
Well, the KMT still won the election by a huge percentage. There’s no going back once you select your government/president and if the people really dislikes the KMT and Ma as much as you’re suggestions, how come they won a landslide election?
Sure, but so is the US of A and many other countries out there.
[quote=“TaipeiDawg”]Yeah, the stuff I saw later on TV was definitely pretty ‘no holds barred’. According to this article, [color=#400080]“Around 64 police were injured during the protests in various parts of Taipei which lasted till early Friday before police used water cannon to dispel a crowd of some 100 protestors”[/color]. So, yes I could believe that the vast majority of the protest was peaceful but toward the end of the night there were 100 or so thugs mixing it up pretty good with the cops for TV and had to be dispersed with water cannon. There must have been some pretty good clashes earlier as well, though, because I did see objects getting thrown and pushing/shoving while the sun was still up but it wasn’t the same level of chaos that the later videos showed.
But I’m glad I saw the posts and photos here from people who actually attended so I got a more balanced idea of what happened, because if you only watched TV last night you would think that the only thing that happened was massive violence by the DPP with Tsai Ying-Wen urging them on. That’s what my wife got out of it and I’m sure it’s what many other people did as well.[/quote]
I saw the earlier stuff on the news as well and yes, it seemed fairly peaceful and that’s not what I’m talking about as that’s fair game. People in a democratic country has the right to protest and make their voices heard, but they don’t have the right to use violence against other people because of a difference in opinion. In this case it ended up being the police taking the worst of it, as they were the only ones at hand. Had there been KMT people out demonstrating as well, then I think things would’ve been taken to a whole other level.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
Three and only three points:
These weren’t riots.
Ma’s approval rating is around 20%.
China is still a major human rights violator.[/quote]
So what were they then? A major brawl?
Well, the KMT still won the election by a huge percentage. There’s no going back once you select your government/president and if the people really dislikes the KMT and Ma as much as you’re suggestions, how come they won a landslide election?
Sure, but so is the US of A and many other countries out there.[/quote]
They were peaceful protests. Do you consider that the Red Shirt protests were brawls and got out of control? I don’t. They were disruptive but peaceful.
Ma is not fulfilling his campaign promises. And is breaking many with regards to China and Taiwan’s sovereignty.
