Anxiety about raising a child in Taipei

Taiwan Parenting
1

Feel free to give me some comments about this. My wife and I had our daughter (our first child) in May. The baby stays home with my wife’s mother now, which is a pretty good arrangement. However, as happens to probably all parents, I can’t help but see the world in a very different way. Specifically, my neighborhood is a mess. Motorcycles zoom out of blind alleys, mechanics have the sidewalks cluttered with greasy motorcycle parts, and I cringe as I see parents walk in the streets with kids as traffic speeds past. There is a park or two within a ten-minute walk, but it’s hard to push a stroller on the sidewalks to even get there. As a kid, I was fortunate to grow up in a house with a small yard and no traffic rushing past. (Even my wife, who was a kid in the late 70s and early 80s, says the environment used to be better–nostaligia perhaps…) I know Taipei is safe in many ways, in terms of street crime for example. However, I tend to think that America might be a better place to raise a young child. Certainly other factors like child care and a stable career enter into that, but we do have our own ideas about how those things could be taken care of. So here’s the choice I’m looking at:

A) Go back to America for at least a few years. (Believe me, I know about America’s problems, but I think they affect teenagers much more than toddlers.)

B) Move to an apartment complex with a courtyard where there’s at least a buffer area against the traffic.

Any ideas?

THANK YOU!

2

That’s the cheaper option.

These are also the best years for your kid to pick up Chinese and Engrish.

There are great parks and indoor places to take young kids in Taipei, as well as a great library next to Daan Park.

Good luck in your decision.

3

I’ve always noticed those things. The Taiwannabies never notice them. One reason I didn’t want children, they would have to grow up in Taiwan.

4

A

This appears to be what you want to hear. Or get the hell out of where you are.

5

There’s your answer. Our community has no visible traffic, buses or garbage trucks, as all the roads are underground. We sleep with the windows open (when weather permits), and the only sounds are frogs and crickets. We have many stroller-friendly pathways, a couple of restaurants, DVD store, convenience store, health club, swimming pools indoor and outdoor, tennis courts, etc. To top it off, rents are very reasonable. I feel our baby girl (8 months old) can have a safe, happy, and healthy childhood here.

Here are some pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/maoman/tags/lotushill/

6

I think that these are questions that should have been asked and answered long before having a child.
Having said that, I also think you don’t need to be a) in America or b) to live in an apartment complex so as to raise a child safely and properly. I do understand your concern though, but with good parenting I reckon that you’d be good to go.
Congratulation on your newborn baby!:slight_smile:

7

Sorry if this rambles a bit, but here goes:

This is really tough - I went through the same thing that are feeling now. Our daughter was born here, and I wanted to raise her back in the US. I don’t understand it now, but at the time I was certain that I would be a bad father if I raised my kid in Taiwan. I think it may have been a case of “new daddy syndrome” or something. Anyway, I schlepped us all back to the US where I could be career daddy.

For us, my career in the US was keeping me away from home too much, and work was always in my head (dot com programmer). The money was very good, and we had the whole car/house/new gadget lifestyle going. Still, my wife loves Taiwan, and I was always at work or thinking about work. We moved back here, and enrolled our daughter in public school, and she is doing just fine.

If you’re planning on staying in the US for a bit and moving back, here’s how it went for us:

We moved back in the summer between her second and third grade, and put her in a small “forest school” up in Yangminshan. Big mistake - she had a rough time fitting in, as all the kids seemed to have already formed their own little groups, and though we worked on her chinese language skills in the US, it was still a big step for her to be immersed in a non-English speaking environment. Some kids do great, ours had a rough time with it initially.

We pulled her out of that school at the end of the year, and moved out of Taipei and bought a house in Puli. I was against this in the beginning, thinking that she would have more trouble from a bunch of country kids. Instead, she made friends right away, and even though she does get the “you’re a foreigner” crap a couple of times a week, she usually just shrugs it off and acts pretty much like all the other girls in her class.

I’ve met other couples that are almost viciously against having their kids go to school and grow up here, but so far it’s worked out really well for us. After hanging out on this board a while, I realize that there are others who are putting their kids through local schools and they all seem to be getting along just fine as well.

On the one hand, you do have to go out of your way to find opportunities for kids to run around and play. On the other hand, the cost of living is so cheap, and work stress generally so low, you have more time to be with your kids to play with them.

If you actually like it here and don’t spend all of your time bitching about the place in front of your children, they’ll be fine with the place too. I don’t think I can state this point strongly enough - don’t try to raise your kids here if you hate being here yourself. Seriously, get out. You can be a bitter old crank all you want, but if you have kids at home and you hate it here, you’re not doing anyone any favors.

Sorry if this is all over the place - I’m trying to get out of the office and head home to play wii with my daughter. I guess my main point is that I’ve done what you’re thinking about, and it worked out just great for us. In my experience, raising kids here hasn’t been even close to the horror stories that I made up for myself when I was brand new daddy-guy. My kid got a really great grounding in American elementary school and came back here just in time to keep up with Taiwanese kids. She’s truly bilingual and loves both countries. Worked for me.

8

[quote=“merge”]Sorry if this rambles a bit, but here goes:

This is really tough - I went through the same thing that are feeling now. Our daughter was born here, and I wanted to raise her back in the US. I don’t understand it now, but at the time I was certain that I would be a bad father if I raised my kid in Taiwan. I think it may have been a case of “new daddy syndrome” or something. Anyway, I schlepped us all back to the US where I could be career daddy.

For us, my career in the US was keeping me away from home too much, and work was always in my head (dot com programmer). The money was very good, and we had the whole car/house/new gadget lifestyle going. Still, my wife loves Taiwan, and I was always at work or thinking about work. We moved back here, and enrolled our daughter in public school, and she is doing just fine.

If you’re planning on staying in the US for a bit and moving back, here’s how it went for us:

We moved back in the summer between her second and third grade, and put her in a small “forest school” up in Yangmingshan. Big mistake - she had a rough time fitting in, as all the kids seemed to have already formed their own little groups, and though we worked on her Chinese language skills in the US, it was still a big step for her to be immersed in a non-English speaking environment. Some kids do great, ours had a rough time with it initially.

We pulled her out of that school at the end of the year, and moved out of Taipei and bought a house in Puli. I was against this in the beginning, thinking that she would have more trouble from a bunch of country kids. Instead, she made friends right away, and even though she does get the “you’re a foreigner” crap a couple of times a week, she usually just shrugs it off and acts pretty much like all the other girls in her class.

I’ve met other couples that are almost viciously against having their kids go to school and grow up here, but so far it’s worked out really well for us. After hanging out on this board a while, I realize that there are others who are putting their kids through local schools and they all seem to be getting along just fine as well.

One the one hand, you do have to go out of your way to find opportunities for kids to run around and play. On the other hand, the cost of living is so cheap, and work stress generally so low, you have more time to be with your kids to play with them.

If you actually like it here and don’t spend all of your time bitching about the place in front of your children, they’ll be fine with the place too. I don’t think I can state this point strongly enough - don’t try to raise your kids here if you hate being here yourself. Seriously, get out. You can be a bitter old crank all you want, but if you have kids at home and you hate it here, you’re not doing anyone any favors.

Sorry if this is all over the place - I’m trying to get out of the office and head home to play wii with my daughter. I guess my main point is that I’ve done what you’re thinking about, and it worked out just great for us. In my experience, raising kids here hasn’t been even close to the horror stories that I made up for myself when I was brand new daddy-guy. My kid got a relly great grounding in American elementary school and came back here just in time to keep up with Taiwanese kids. She’s truly bilingual and loves both countries. Worked for me.[/quote]

Well said.

9

There’s your answer. Our community has no visible traffic, buses or garbage trucks, as all the roads are underground. We sleep with the windows open (when weather permits), and the only sounds are frogs and crickets. We have many stroller-friendly pathways, a couple of restaurants, DVD store, convenience store, health club, swimming pools indoor and outdoor, tennis courts, etc. To top it off, rents are very reasonable. I feel our baby girl (8 months old) can have a safe, happy, and healthy childhood here.

Here are some pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/maoman/tags/lotushill/[/quote]

Wow, Maoman, are you sure you live in Taiwan? :wink: You know, I’ve read posts where the guys compliment, ehem, your maowoman, but really both your girls out class you by miles! Beatuiful life you’ve got.

10

That’s a classic post merge.

Being a good father may be easier in Taiwan because one… ehem, tends to overcompensate for the more obvious of the shitty parts of this place.

11

I dunno Matthew. Am I Taiwannabie? I’d rather my kid was raised here. Bad sidewalks vs. hoodie gangs with guns shooting 11-year-old children dead. Hmmm. Difficult choice.

12

A couple of things to think about…

*Moving - especially across continents - is no small task and can seriously strain a relationship. Throw in the stress of new parenthood, and the uhhh “joys” of no sleep with a newborn, and things can get a little ugly. Add to that job uncertainty and … uck! Really, if you do move back to the US, I’d make sure your ducks are all lined up before you leave.

*Do you really feel like you are experiencing Taipei/Taiwan when you live in a gated community? If it’s a toss up between the US and Taiwan, and you are going to live in an insulated community - then why live in Taiwan? Learning to speak Chinese is great, but you can do that through Skype now.

We brought our daughter to Sinjhuang City when she was 3 months old (now 10 months), and we would definitely not raise our daughter here. Taiwan is great and the people are wonderful, but rightfully so, we are treated as freaks (
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10229742@N03/1222645382/) and it is only a matter of time before the little one starts to internalize those feelings. She gets grabbed all the time by strangers and she already is recoiling when anyone - including us - goes to touch her hands. Add to that the chemically laced food, pollution, playing Frogger with the blue trucks/scooters/buses just walking to the park, SARS, bird flu, other general sickliness, lightening storms, typhoons, earthquakes, roaches, dengue fever, mosquitoes, that black layer of soot that builds up on our balcony, 900+ missiles aimed at our heads, poisonous snakes, rats, debilitating heat and humidity, undrinkable tap water, traffic, uneven sidewalks (are they still called sidewalks if you can’t actually walk on them?), road construction in residential neighborhoods from 10PM to 5 AM for weeks on end (sorry, personal rant there - but it does affect her sleeping which is very important for the little buggers), oceans of cement, etc. and at a certain point I have to say that, for us, Taipei isn’t a great place to raise a little kid. Lots of fun and endless opportunities for adults, but once kids enter the picture the paradigm shifts and priorities change.

On the other hand, there are a lot of pluses to Taipei and Taiwan (which with my limited time here I certainly can’t do justice to): a very stimulating environment, exposure to a second language, nearby nature, and low cost of living to name a few. My baby loves: screeching at all the stray dogs, pointing out the flocks of racing pigeons in the sky, opening the fridge doors at Family Mart, riding the bus, veggie buffet, the bakery, pulling the juices off the racks at 7-11, drinking mango slushes, seaweed (our favorite!), noodles, touching the packaged fish at Wellcome, looking at the animals on the pet food at Wellcome, standing on scooters, and paying the money at the food carts. You can do a lot of great day-to-day things in Taipei with your kid, but over the long haul I think small town living in the US will be better for her.

Just a few more scattered thoughts for you to try and make sense of :idunno:

13

Well, you’re living in Xinzhuang, which is undoubtedly a complete and utter shithole, that’s true. But it’s hardly representative of Taipei. Is it even Taipei at all? I feel like I’m in another country on the odd unfortunate occasion when I find myself up there.

14

All this talk about ‘which place is best’ is a bit weird. You are raising children with free will; the only thing you can guarantee is that they won’t grow up like you.

The optimum conditions aren’t the optimum conditions. You aren’t growing tomatoes. It’s natural to want to control your child’s influences and environment, but what for? Will that give them strength and security or take it away?

The kids at my school who died unnaturally or were broken by life weren’t the ones from ‘poor environments’.

Not criticising anyone’s parenting, just giving a few impressions which may or may not be total shit.

15

One thing you might consider is the stress you might feel living here with your kids. We spent the summer in Canada and I can’t tell you what a difference it made for my wife and I. My daughter noticed it too as she would ask with wonderment why people slowed down in their cars when we were near the road or would actually stop to let us cross. Being able to open the door and let my kids walk outside without the worry of some loon clipping them with their scooter - on the sidewalk. I can’t count the number of close calls we have had simply walking the streets of Hsinchu. I’m afraid even after 10 years here I can’t develop the ‘what-ever-happens-happens’ attitude so many local friends have when it comes to the safety of their children. I’m a bear around my kids and after a time it wears you out.

You can create a great environment almost anywhere for your kids but some places make it far easier than others.

The issue we are working through is education (the other is I want my son playing hockey) for our daughter who will be entering pre-school and elementary in the not so distant future. I think a great school is essential and that is helping guide us whether we stay or go. I’m inclined to leave if we can’t find something suitable (we are not interested in the international schools here) where we would go is up in the air. The amount of after school programs here is dizzying - such a thing is unheard of in Eastern Canada - so thats certainly a positive.

Sorry for the ramble.

16

Sure, for the most part Taiwan is ugly, polluted, noisy, smelly and lacking in easily accessible outdoor activities for young kids. But that’s no reason to quit and go home. If you’ve got a good job here then definitely stick it out, but you may wish to move to a different neighborhood. Maoman and others rave about their peaceful oasis. Sandman’s remote country location sounds nice too. But I’m very happy in the city – Minseng E Rd, in the Songshan Dist, which is fairly clean by Taiwan standards, has lots of trees, neighborhood parks, restaurants, etc just out the door.

Taiwan can be terrific for ones career (it has been for me) contrary to the oft-repeated statements about it being just a gap in the resume that can never be overcome.

As for kids, while my daughter is always thrilled with the clean air and open space back home in America, she’s very happy in Taiwan, this is her home, she’s growing up familiar with different cultures, different people, different experiences, different languages (I’m so proud/envious of how she learns multiple languages with total ease). I don’t believe it’s a disservice to raise a young child here. On the contrary, you’re doing your child a great disservice if you yank her out of here and drag her back to the boring, ordinary, English speaking place that you came from.

Move to a nicer place in Taiwan and stick it out. It gets better here the longer you stay, eventually you’ll come to like it, and your child will never notice all the negative crap (will never think of it as negative) unless you tell her it is, which you should try to refrain from doing.

17

I used to live in Taiwan and my kids preschool years were spent in Lotus Hill. We’ve been back in the USA for about 1.5yrs and my kids like it better here. While we do spend one month/yr. in Taiwan the kids still prefer it here which is not to say that they don’t like it in Taiwan but they do notice the differences and prefer it here in Phoenix. The biggest problem in Taiwan for the kiddies is to find proper schooling and to live in an area where the kids don’t learn poor behaviour from other neglected (wild) children. Lotus Hill was a dead end for us as the local schools there are not acceptable even for some of the Taiwanese who lived there. We had Taiwanese friends who had to either move away from Lotus Hill or send their kids to far away private schools when they started Kindergarten. I think that Muhza is the best place to raise a child in Greater Taipei if all things considered as the schools there are ok.

18

I had my two boys spend their early years in Taiwan (oldest until the fifth grade). I moved back to the States because of them…the best thing I have ever done…even though the personal cost was high.

I can’t even to begin to tell you how they have matured both physically and socially… I am almost looking at my 7th grader in the eye and my youngest son…that’s a whole other story…and a good one at that. Both are at the top of their classes academically.

“Where” in the States one wants to raise their child(ren) is very important. Good schools, clean environment, safety…those are worth more than money.

Money and career…never put them above family. I know, as I have neither. :wink:

19

Agreed, but Taiwan’s good for my money and career AND I also believe it’s good for my girl now. True she would have more good healthy outdoor activities in the States (better weather, more clean, beautiful open spaces, less traffic), but I think she’s extremely fortunate to learn Chinese and English simultaneously, with no effort.

I struggled through French, Spanish and Chinese lessons and never really became conversant in any of them. I hope to leave this Island in a year or two (though my family tells me it’ll be 15 more years). By then my girl will be about 5, will be fluent in oral Chinese and recognize a fair number of characters. Plus, she’s learning about very different cultures from an early age, so she will understand naturally, from early childhood, that there are very different people in the world and it’s no big deal (something that folks back home sometimes never learn). I believe those are terrific gifts I’m giving her just by living here. Then we’ll move back and she can live in a more livable environment in the US.

So I don’t feel I’m depriving her of anything. I’m giving her the best of both worlds. Taiwan to start out, then America.

20

My kid is healthy, happy and excelling as a human bean IMHO.

One does not need to be in the US or Taiwan or anywhere else for that to happen.