Now it’s accurate
HH: In which ways do you think Taiwan still needs to improve things before it can be considered developed?
Cornpone: Haha!
Usable pavements (sidewalks/footpaths for our colonial cousins) would be a start. Adherence to the rule of law would help. Otherwise, I agree that the north of the country, at least, is close to what I would define as developed.
Adherence to the rule of law? Taiwanese are very law abiding with the laws that are enforced. The police just need to enforce them with political support. Remember all Taiwan is not the same. If you double park in Miaoli or Taipei or Kaoshiung or park on a yellow or red line you will be towed. In Taichung you would be very unlucky to get towed. Go through a red light the same sort of idea.
Lack of sidewalks, yes it is a big problem for my family here, it really annoys me with a young child and double parking which is rampant in Taichung. But going along with that there are many areas of Taichung which are superior to Taipei in my opinion in the way they are laid-out, more parks and more space and the costs are manageable. Taipei has good pavements
now which is really great but most people can’t afford to raise a family in the city itself.
Issues like crime and medical cost and poor medical care can be more annoying and more critical than the above. A lot of people have issues with Taiwan but not because it is undeveloped but because it is a very foreign culture and a very crowded island living in ugly buildings. Ugly buildings does not mean undeveloped.
Another thing I forgot was visa recognition. Taiwanese have made huge strides with this and that is a MAJOR indicator of developed status.
Take out these issues, pollution and lack of pavements, there is really not much holding Taiwan back from developed status, plus it has low national debt compared to Western countries so finances are also strong. Basically I see Taiwan as a developed nation with some issues it needs to sort out. These issues may actually be less problematic than countries such as Greece or Italy or even parts of the US as long as stable relations are maintained with China.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Adherence to the rule of law? Taiwanese are very law abiding with the laws that are enforced. The police just need to enforce them with political support.
[/quote]
Eh? Not sure that I follow the moral reasoning behind this 
.
Other than that, I agree with your other points. I haven’t been down to Taichung for years (last time I went I decided that it was a horrendous shithole and vowed to never go again). It looks like it has improved a lot since then.
Adherence to rule of law? So England is not developed then? :raspberry:
I would agree that parts of it no longer are.
[quote=“Gman”]Spock: This wouldn’t happen in Canada; viewtopic.php?f=75&t=86488
another topical thread; [JFRV holder denied captain's license exam
This thread is about Taiwanese being racist. Do you actually understand what that is? These 2 threads do not relate to racism. They are simply about non citizens not being allowed to hold certain licences. Yes the same thing does occur in other countries. Can any Canadian citizen own land anywhere in Canada? No, there are exceptions. Does that make Canada a racist country?
Can anybody own media compaies in the USA? No, they have to be US citizens. I know Taiwanese who game up ROC nationality, they are also not able to hold the same licences as they are not citizens.
Seems there is some foreigner in Alishan who has been living the tribe there for 12 years. Being Aboriginal in Taiwan is now seen as a good thing but a long time ago people would not admit to Aboriginal heritage whereas nowasdays everybody wants let others know about their aboriginal ancestry. That movie Sadiq Bale is a good example of people here wanting to learn about historical facts kept hidden from them previously by the KMT.
Was in the news today
That’s naive. It’s trendy now to admit to aboriginal descent in some circles, but that could easily change. And the fact that everyone at Starbucks thinks you’re cool doesn’t mean your parents would if you brought a Bunun girl home.
Racism and discrimination is still very widespread toward aboriginals. Better than before but still there.
But I think this is a bit of a non-issue in terms of the general argument of this thread. Native peoples are discriminated against everywhere, including some of the most tolerant places on earth (such as Canada).
I agree with what you add Mucha Man.
However this thread title tars all Taiwanese as being racists and that is not something I believe is accurate. If somebody wants to point to an isolated incident fine they can be found. Racism and discrimination occurs just as much in Canada or the USA and other western countries as it does in Taiwan.
You will never be rid of racism or discrimination no matter how many laws you can enact. It’s people that determine the way they act, not some words in print.
But it is us foreingers against them locals. Foreingers move to Taiwan then insist that we show these people how to behave and we lose our cool and throw temper tantrums and scream unintelligible things at people here who dare call us foreingers. The cheek of the locals to call us such names.
Taiwan dont need the UN which is just a money sucking institution full of racists itself.
[quote=“Dr Spock”]I agree with what you add Muzha Man.
However this thread title tars all Taiwanese as being racists and that is not something I believe is accurate. [/quote]
I don’t believe it’s accurate either. I know it’s not. These threads come up every now and then and usually come down to a few isolated anecdotes, and the truly appaliing institutional discrimination against SE Asian workers.
That said, I don’t agree with you that there is as much discrimination in Canada as here. There are both legal and societal measures that keep racism down. We in the west are particularly sensitive about racism at the political level because of WWII and the Nazis. That’s a collective memory the Taiwanese just don’t have which means people are much more free to discriminate. Being a racist in Canada makes you a pariah. Here, just someone with an opinion others may or may not agree with.
There is a difference. Children grow up in the west with most of society, from the media, to the political class, to teachers, and most of their friends, absolutely opposed to racism. Opposed in a fervent way. We had slavery and genocide not that long ago. You want to go back to that? Is that who you are? (I don’t mean you of course. I mean this is the response you get if you are racist.)
I agree it’s not accurate (that all Taiwanese are racist), but I saw the title more as a question than as an accusation. 
[quote=“Mucha Man”] Being a racist in Canada makes you a pariah. Here, just someone with an opinion others may or may not agree with.
There is a difference. Children grow up in the west with most of society, from the media, to the political class, to teachers, and most of their friends, absolutely opposed to racism. Opposed in a fervent way. We had slavery and genocide not that long ago. You want to go back to that? Is that who you are? (I don’t mean you of course. I mean this is the response you get if you are racist.)[/quote]
Collective memory or social conditioning through school education programs? Most people around today were not alive during ww2. Taiwanese I know have many stories from their grandparents about ww2, the ones that are still alive to remember it from their youth. Even Americans only remember ww2 though history and other lessons at school. I went through this in the US education system.
Well Taiwanese themselves have not used slavery ( unless you count the Japanese occupation where locals were forced to work unpaid ) and that is still remembered by some elders here. However that was brushed aside by the KMT who were even worse with controlling the country. After all Martial Law was only repealed a short time ago in the overall scheme of things.
Taiwanese have not practiced racism like the USA or Canada has… no KKK stalwarts here unlike in the USA where they are still around.
It not that big of an issue in Canada and the USA because some people have learned to be more tolerant, or because people have learned to hide their real thinking. This is also true in Taiwan. But I do agree there are some ( very few ) who will openly offend others with their racist language. I have heard many foreigners here say racist things about others not knowing that those around them understand the language they are speaking.
At least we both agree the thread is really not an accurate to describe Taiwanese.
Xenophobia racism discrimination prejudice all exist everywhere. Yes there are people who say things that are racist but when confronted with it will change their ways. Some Taiwanese are not even aware that the way they behave can be classed as racist. We have all heard the " But you’re not Chinese or you don’t understand Chinese Culture" excuses.
However change really needs to be addressed on all social levels and the best place for that is at school level where everybody can be taught about what norms are acceptable and what are not acceptable and it can take decades to cover a few generations. One might remember that having foreigners living in Taiwan is still very new here and it is a recent development. Many people here over 40 years of age never had the experience of having a foreign teacher or interacting with those not from Taiwan. It’s not like there is a long history if immigrants moving to Taiwan as there is with other western countries.
The younger generation do and they do have a very strong acceptance of others who are different to themselves. So if some people want to view Taiwanese in general as racists then so be it. I will just disagree with them on the stereotyping.
The title ( to answer Mod Bismarck ) could have been Is there racism in Taiwan? After all why assume that only Taiwanese could be racist here. There are also many foreigners living here that can be classed as racists as well.
I am sure that people such as Bismarck who have seen the end on one regime replaced by another equally intolerant regime has a good idea of what racism really is.
I have been the brunt of racist chants when I was young, and also followed around the store by the manager who probably thought I was there to steal and not pay for anything. That manager never followed any white kids around the store, only those who looked decidedly non white.
There are those who are ignorant who say stupid things, and there are those who would stomp on you are beat you up for being a different race. Neither are very nice but ignorant ones can be trained. The others you have to just deal with in a different way. My father made me study not math but martial arts as a kid. After Bruce Lee movies came out street fighting was a whole new ballgame. Suddenly little guys were beating the crap out of bigger people and not just one on one.
Yes that is me in my Avatar. Was a bit younger then I admit, but still the same ripple flex muscular body.
[quote=“Dr Spock”]Seems there is some foreigner in Alishan who has been living the tribe there for 12 years. Was in the news today
tw.nextmedia.com/applenews/artic … D/20111026
life.chinatimes.com/2009Cti/Chan … 68,00.html[/quote]
That’s nuts. Why would a foreigner go and move to Alishan so far away from the rest of us expats in Taiwan? Mental issues?
Gone native no doubt and probably can’t speak English anymore.
[quote=“DINGO DEANS”][quote=“Dr Spock”]Seems there is some foreigner in Alishan who has been living the tribe there for 12 years. Was in the news today
tw.nextmedia.com/applenews/artic … D/20111026
life.chinatimes.com/2009Cti/Chan … 68,00.html[/quote]
That’s nuts. Why would a foreigner go and move to Alishan so far away from the rest of us expats in Taiwan? Mental issues?
Gone native no doubt and probably can’t speak English anymore.[/quote]
I don’t believe it, either. Next they’ll be telling us that he has an ROC passport or something similarly ridiculous.
[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“DINGO DEANS”][quote=“Dr Spock”]Seems there is some foreigner in Alishan who has been living the tribe there for 12 years. Was in the news today
tw.nextmedia.com/applenews/artic … D/20111026
life.chinatimes.com/2009Cti/Chan … 68,00.html[/quote]
That’s nuts. Why would a foreigner go and move to Alishan so far away from the rest of us expats in Taiwan? Mental issues?
Gone native no doubt and probably can’t speak English anymore.[/quote]
I don’t believe it, either. Next they’ll be telling us that he has an ROC passport or something similarly ridiculous.[/quote]
The article I read only mentions he has lived in Alishan for 12 years and comes from Australia. Does anybody actually know who he is?
No, as far as I know, I’ve never heard of the guy.
Mental issues? OH YEAH! And THEN some. I certainly would never believe his tales unless he pulled out his ID card, though. In any case, he died tragically a few months back. It was reported right here by his son.