Arizona Clears Strict Immigration Bill

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“hardball”]I think the opposition likes to play up the random stops to check papers aspect of the proposed Law, J.
[…]
There must be reasonable suspicion. Being there occupying space cannot be reason enough. Looking illegal cannot be enough.

Gathering on corners waiting for pickup work. Bingo. Gotcha. [/quote]
I think there’s a good reason for playing up that point. It is a significant one, I think.

Why must there be reasonable suspicion? When a cop’s going down the road in his cruiser, why must there be reasonable suspicion? What’s the test? What’s the check on his power? In every case where the state has assumed powers of this type, those powers have been abused. Remind me, which of us is the conservative?

[quote=“hardball”]And don’t you think there’ would be less illegal on illegal crime if there were fewer illegals crossing over? [/quote] Logically, if there were no illegals, there’d be no crimes committed against them. Realistically, will this bill drastically reduce the number of illegals? Doubtful. Economic push and pull factors will trump it’ll-never-happen-to-me ‘what ifs’. There will continue to be a large pool of illegals. They will be subject to greater predation criminal and economic. They will be less able to access health care and education, with immediate and long term negative outcomes. The unintended consequences of this bill are pretty daunting.

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[quote=“Jaboney”]

Why must there be reasonable suspicion? When a cop’s going down the road in his cruiser, why must there be reasonable suspicion? What’s the test? What’s the check on his power?[/quote] IF there is reasonable suspicion. IF. The race card gets so much play because one assumes that the cops WILL assume every ethically significant to this bill person is an illegal alien.

Walking down the street won’t cut it. Congregating outside McDonalds won’t. But being in a place where pickup work is found. Of course. Who does that work? Primarily illegals, right? Well, there ya go.

[quote]
In every case where the state has assumed powers of this type, those powers have been abused.[/quote]
But isn’t that the case for nearly EVERY law? That the enforcing powers that be have gone too far?

Why? Do you miss the partisan bickering? After reading The Next 100 Years, I’m more of the pro-American Geo-political persuasion. :laughing:

As are the unintended consequences of legal migrant labor.

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[quote=“hardball”][quote=“Jaboney”]Why must there be reasonable suspicion? When a cop’s going down the road in his cruiser, why must there be reasonable suspicion? What’s the test? What’s the check on his power?[/quote] IF there is reasonable suspicion. IF. The race card gets so much play because one assumes that the cops WILL assume every ethically significant to this bill person is an illegal alien.

Walking down the street won’t cut it. Congregating outside McDonalds won’t. But being in a place where pickup work is found. Of course. Who does that work? Primarily illegals, right? Well, there ya go.[/quote]
Not quite. What’s the mechanism? Where are the checks on state power?

But isn’t that the case for nearly EVERY law? That the enforcing powers that be have gone too far? [/quote]That’s not exactly an argument in favor of this bill.

Why? Do you miss the partisan bickering? [/quote]No, I’m wondering what happened to the traditional conservative suspicion of state power.

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I never claimed to be a traditional conservative. :laughing:

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Hmmm…I wasn’t aware of “the Gestapo” being on active patrol in the United States of America.[/quote]
Please re-read his quote:
“one of the great things about the U.S. has always been that people can walk around
without
 being asked at random by the Gestapo to show documentation.”[/quote]

You know we don’t have that right here in Taiwan. I was told by a lawyer that foreigners always have to carry their ARC/ Passport/ID. and the police can ask you at any time. I don’t know if anyone can confirm this.
The police in the States can ask you for your ID pretty much at any time, and if you live in California or the Southwest where 90% of your existence is in a car the police don’t even need to ask you, they can just run your plates.
I think everyone here seems to agree that targeting people because of the color of their skin is just fucking bad regardless of the reason for it.

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That’s why LEOs need a more nuanced approach, like checking out people with cactus thorns and wet clothes. :slight_smile:

I listened to a program on American Public Radio about this issue this morning. http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/04/arizonas-tough-immigration-bill

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I listened to a program on American Public Radio about this issue this morning. http://www.onpointradio.org/2010/04/arizonas-tough-immigration-bill[/quote]

Great find! :bravo:

Very informative, from the horse’s mouth (20 year cop now AZ legislator) who didn’t sound at all like this:

[quote=“Dragonbones”]
Poor education, living in a backwater state, conservative attitudes, all leading to xenophobia, with maybe some inbreeding thrown in. Who knows? That legislature is pretty screwed up, that’s for sure.[/quote]
Unless law and order is still just a conservative chestnut.

The reporter from the NYT said that whatever the outcome of the Bill on the AZ Governor’s desk, pass or veto, the issue is significant enough to jump to the head of the line on National issues…but little may be done…erection year and all…

Much of the info they provided btw, we have in this thread. :thumbsup:

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What’s worse, it’s a CRIME not to have them, and you can be held indefinitely, without trial, as a result, unless the police can determine the legality of your presence. Did you see that clause in the bill?

[quote]However, I believe this bill should be a wake up call to the Obama Administration to take action. Some recommended steps:

  1. Order the National Guard to establish a defensive perimeter across the entire southern border, not just in Arizona.
  2. Require all federal agencies to enforce Homeland Security’s monitoring policies.
  3. Scrap the virtual fence project and replace it with a permanent, multi-tiered defensive structure (i.e., layers of fencing with patrol roads and extensive monitoring equipment).
  4. Increase the number of CBP agents by the thousands.

Drastic measures? Sure, but a secure border is better than police walking our cities around demanding to see documents.[/quote]

No objection here.

Excellent points as usual, Jaboney.

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What’s worse, it’s a CRIME not to have them, and you can be held indefinitely, without trial, as a result, unless the police can determine the legality of your presence. Did you see that clause in the bill?
[/quote]
No. I didn’t. This is the second time you mentioned it though…no link?

What I read was held for 6 months, 2,500 fine on the first arrest…2 years on the second…third…then deported.

But who in all serious would be held that long, if legal, and their driver’s license was at home?

If you are going to make this claim about indefinite holding…repeatedly, please back it up. Because NO WHERE I’ve read is saying this…

A quick check on the AZ ACLU:
aclu.org/immigrants-rights/a … bill-calls

[quote]
January 20, 2010

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: media@aclu.org

PHOENIX – The American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona today expressed disappointment with the passage of legislation in a Senate committee that, among other things, forces local municipalities and police departments to prioritize civil immigration enforcement over their other public safety responsibilities and makes any non-citizen who has entered the United States without permission guilty of the additional state crime of trespassing. The measure was approved 4-3 despite objections from the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police and the Arizona Farm Bureau.

“This bill goes beyond just enlisting the help of local police agencies to enforce immigration laws,” said ACLU of Arizona Alessandra Soler Meetze, who testified against SB 1070 at today’s hearing before the Senate Public Safety and Human Services Committee. "It severely ties the hands of cities and counties by mandating that their officers arrest people for immigration violations without federal training or constitutional safeguards.

“Aside from being arguably unlawful, such a policy is particularly harmful at a time when Arizona’s local governments are already making difficult choices about how to allocate their limited resources to arrest and detain violent offenders who pose serious threats to public safety.”

As the Goldwater Institute found last year, the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office’s efforts to prioritize immigration enforcement have greatly compromised response times for violent crimes.

The ACLU said that it knows of no other state or town in the country that has passed a statute specifically enumerating unlawful presence as a state crime. A similar attempt to give local police additional powers using a trespassing statute in 2005 in New Hampshire was found to violate the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution gives the federal government exclusive power to regulate the nation’s borders. SB 1070 goes even further and purports to give local law enforcement the authority to arrest and transport suspected undocumented immigrants into federal custody without even the minimum due process provided by federal law.

“If passed, this bill would be found by the courts to be an even more direct attempt to regulate immigration and, therefore, preempted by federal law,” added Meetze. “The legislation would also lead to the unjustified detention of many citizens and legal residents and encourage law enforcement to place a discriminatory focus of their investigations on Latino residents. This would expose municipalities to additional civil litigation.”

Finally, the ACLU noted the significant up front fiscal costs that would be incurred by local police associated with training officers and transporting and incarcerating non-criminal, immigration violators. For example, the Board of Supervisors for Prince William County in Virginia passed a similar immigration law, but the Board eventually delayed implementation of law when it learned from the police chief that the local law enforcement portion of measure would cost $14.2 million over five yrs to implement. [/quote]

Now, this was January. No mention of indefinite detentions. A google led me to blogs…but no reliable news source that states the passed Bill stipulates indefinite detentions. It would be stupid and counterproductive. They aren’t terrorists. They’re looking for work.

Amnesty International USA
blog.amnestyusa.org/us/tell-ariz … to-sb1070/[quote]
The Arizona House and Senate have passed a bill (SB1070) that would empower police officers to stop and interrogate every individual in the state regarding citizenship status and make it a crime to be an undocumented person in Arizona. If a person does not immediately present documents proving that she is legally in the US, she may be criminally prosecuted, jailed and turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for deportation. The bill contains no safeguards against racial profiling and increases the likelihood of arbitrary arrest and detention. These are all human rights violations. Because SB1070 has already passed in the Arizona house, it’s next stop is the governor’s office. Tell Governor Jan Brewer to veto the bill. Join activists across the US as they visit the Governor on April 20th to express opposition to this bill.[/quote]
Nothing about INDEFINITE DETENTION. You’d think, were it in there, AI and the ACLU would be livid.

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Great find! :bravo:
Very informative, from the horse’s mouth (20 year cop now AZ legislator) who didn’t sound at all like this:

Unless law and order is still just a conservative chestnut.

The reporter from the NYT said that whatever the outcome of the Bill on the AZ Governor’s desk, pass or veto, the issue is significant enough to jump to the head of the line on National issues…but little may be done…erection year and all…

Much of the info they provided btw, we have in this thread. :thumbsup:[/quote]Interesting piece AJ.
However, I remain skeptical of much I read/hear on NPR.
Why? Well maybe…
Omitting Words, NPR Portrays a Conservative Court Watcher As a Clarence Thomas Hater is just one of the reasons.

The “race card” is tired. IMO, its ‘racist’ to say or imply that only ‘brown-skinned’ people are illegals and are being targeted by the LEOs. Whatever it takes to weed out the illegals, that meets the legal standards of the courts, should be employed.
If it has been historically found a sound procedure to look at a specific group (profile- gasp!) in investigating a crime, and being an illegal is…well, a crime) then it is a waste of resources and tax payers money to not look at this group.

added:
And another thing, there is no “Typical American Citizen Look.” We pretty much run the gamut as to skin color, eye color, clothing preference and speech and language.
We’re just innately tricky that way…:smiley:

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[quote] WASHINGTON, April 21 (Reuters) - Democratic leaders in the U.S. Congress may try to win passage of contentious immigration reform legislation this year in a move that could further harm prospects for a climate-change bill, congressional aides said on Wednesday.

House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and other Democratic leaders huddled in the Capitol on Tuesday to discuss legislative priorities in what is rapidly becoming a tight schedule this election year.

During the meeting, Pelosi and Reid discussed which bills the Senate might be able to pass this year, according to one House Democratic leadership aide. The aide said that Pelosi told Reid “if you can do immigration first, that’s fine.”

An immigration debate could dominate the Senate for several weeks or months, whether or not it comes to a final vote. This could occur at the very time that proponents of climate-change legislation had hoped the Senate focus would be on their bill.

The immigration reform legislation aims to toughen border security and update the process for admitting temporary workers while also providing a path for citizenship for the 11 million people in the United States illegally, most of them Hispanics.

Tens of thousands of people rallied last month in Washington to demand immigration reform.

Climate-control legislation aims to bring the United States into a global effort to reduce emissions of so-called greenhouse gases blamed for global warming.

Both bills are seen as long-shots for passage this year.

Another senior House Democratic aide, who asked not to be identified, said that both Pelosi and Reid talked about the importance of passing immigration reform this year.

“I don’t remember there being a real conversation” on climate legislation during Tuesday’s meeting, the aide added.

Jennifer Duffy, who tracks Senate races for the non-partisan Cook Political Report, said turning to immigration reform next would rev up the liberal Democratic base, as well as the conservative Republican base in opposition.[/quote]

Which is interesting…the politics that is:[quote]
Senator Lindsey Graham, a Republican point man on both immigration and climate control, told reporters that the Senate was not prepared to debate immigration reform this year.

“I think we ought to take it up next year with the new Congress,” Graham said.

Asked why Reid is now pushing it, Graham said, “I think it’s because he is in an election and he has a big Hispanic vote, and they (Democrats) made promises” to revamp immigration laws this year.

It is unclear what would happen to the climate-change legislation if Reid turns to immigration reform, Graham said.[/quote]
But Phil may be dreaming of picking up some seats in November…
reuters.com/article/idUSN2110677720100421

Looks like this is the playing field for the National debate:

Feds so far:
Border patrols
revamping the E-Verify program/temp workers thing
path to citizenship for illegals

:popcorn:

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I would like to see anyone who can promise to deport 11 million illegal aliens. It ain’t going to happen no matter whether Republicans or Democrats are in charge. The logistics are impossible. The question becomes one of whether you want illegals working in a gray or black economy or you want them legalized, taxed and part of the system. Again, no matter what anyone says… 11 million people are not going anywhere.

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Stop the presses!

I want to savour this moment.

ahhhh… thanks, fred.

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Stop the presses!

I want to savour this moment.

ahhhh… thanks, fred.[/quote]
You might try savoring reality more often. :wink:

No one here has remotely suggested deported 11 million people. Stopping the influx would be nice though…

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Bring in the bill and you effective push whatever fraction of number living in Arizona into a deep, dark corner. The practical consequences will not be nice.

Imagine you’re a gang-banger in Scottsdale. This bill is passed. What do you do? Target every illegal alien you can find who isn’t armed to the teeth and mean as hell. What are they going to do, report you? So, how much could you get away with? How much theft? How many muggings? Assault for kicks hitting the bar Friday night? Rape?

Now, how safe would you feel if you were a legal Latino and all this were going on?

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[quote=“Jaboney”]Bring in the bill and you effective push whatever fraction of number living in Arizona into a deep, dark corner. The practical consequences will not be nice.

Imagine you’re a gang-banger in Scottsdale. This bill is passed. What do you do? Target every illegal alien you can find who isn’t armed to the teeth and mean as hell. What are they going to do, report you? So, how much could you get away with? How much theft? How many muggings? Assault for kicks hitting the bar Friday night? Rape?

Now, how safe would you feel if you were a legal Latino and all this were going on?[/quote]
Why all the speculation? The facts are bad enough. Why would gangbangers target illegals? Meth? To get them through a working day? They have money?? Rape all the chambermaids? I’m so sure exploitation of illegals BY OTHER ILLEGALS and CRIMINALS happens now…more the reason to start shutting down the system.

Why though the need to imagine what WORSE things will happen. Horrible things are happening now. I said before I’ll be traveling through AZ in the near future. I was looking for houses. Cheap as hell. Beautiful. 100,000 usd will get you a LOT in Kingman, AZ. But take a look at the crime rate…fuuuuuuck that. DOUBLE the national average for home break-ins, property theft, car theft and rape. wtf. And then look at Phoenix. :astonished:

It’s worse now. More worse is a statistical matter of degree.

I say, fuck them. Don’t be afraid. Do the tough stuff first.

This has been an OP-ED post.

Regular news service will return tomorrow… :sunglasses:

2 days…

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[quote=“Jaboney”]Bring in the bill and you effective push whatever fraction of number living in Arizona into a deep, dark corner. The practical consequences will not be nice.

Imagine you’re a gang-banger in Scottsdale. This bill is passed. What do you do? Target every illegal alien you can find who isn’t armed to the teeth and mean as hell. What are they going to do, report you? So, how much could you get away with? How much theft? How many muggings? Assault for kicks hitting the bar Friday night? Rape?

Now, how safe would you feel if you were a legal Latino and all this were going on?[/quote]
Why this is the most ignorant post you’ve made in a while:

  1. Gang-banger in Scottsdale? :roflmao:
  2. Illegal’s are for all intents and purposes ghettoized, though they were previously living such places like Surprise. They were basically bought out. Yell “mojado” and see how well that goes for you.
  3. Have you ever heard of New Eme? Yeah, go rape one of their nieces, rob their auntie, mug their uncle, etc. Enjoy your life, because it will end shortly.
  4. Legal Latinos will be safe as they speak English and most want the illegals gone.
  5. Racial violence in Arizona? :roflmao: :loco:
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Glad you got the joke. Your post was pretty funny as well.

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Prince William County Virginia tried this in 2007. Hispanics (legal and illegal) took their business elsewhere, and small business suffered. They later repealed it.

If this bill passes in Arizona, I hope that Hispanics, and other people of conscience, will take their business elsewhere.

On the Randi Rhodes show, a caller, who had grown up in the Soviet Union, called in to say that what would happen in Arizona (police randomly hassling citizens for their papers) is what happened to citizens under the Soviet government. And you can bet your ass that people who look Hispanic will be hassled more than people who look white.

Color me confused, but I thought the US was supposed to be a free country, one that is supposed to welcome immigrants (“Give me your tired, your poor, etc.”).

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[quote=“Chris”]Prince William County Virginia tried this in 2007. Hispanics (legal and illegal) took their business elsewhere, and small business suffered. They later repealed it.

If this bill passes in Arizona, I hope that Hispanics, and other people of conscience, will take their business elsewhere.

On the Randi Rhodes show, a caller, who had grown up in the Soviet Union, called in to say that what would happen in Arizona (police randomly hassling citizens for their papers) is what happened to citizens under the Soviet government. And you can bet your ass that people who look Hispanic will be hassled more than people who look white.

Color me confused, but I thought the US was supposed to be a free country, one that is supposed to welcome immigrants (“Give me your tired, your poor, etc.”).[/quote]

Come on, Chris. It’s late…

Give me…a break.

At least, give us a LINK. Where will the Hispanics in AZ go? What are you saying? The (il)legals should vote with their feet?

NO ONE is saying that LEGAL IMMIGRATION should be halted. NO ONE. It IS what makes my country great.

In AZ, we are NOT talking about legal migrants or temp visa migrants. We are talking ILLEGAL migrants (and I suppose, legals who overstay…ergo, illegals).

God bless the legals who get in and work hard, have kids and vote their conscience.

But…stop…seriously…the ENORMOUS number of illegals entering the USA through the AZ border needs to be slowed…stopped if possible.

It’s not FAIR…to the immigrants who went the legal route…paid their dues…

Dragonbones said a while back, Jose comes in and gets kicked out and comes back three days later. Well, hey, fuckin Jose is the problemo.

Give me your poor, your tired, your weak…but please KEEP your opportunist shitheads who have no desire to ENTER THE SYSTEM.

Come on Chris…you’re from Cali. Your State is broke and also has a MASSIVE illegal immigrant problem. They can’t ALL go to Berkeley for free. . Do the math.

If you get 1070, you get Obama. If you get Obama, you get Immigration Reform. Yes, Bush should have could have done it…he didn’t. But now, with 1070 coming…2 days…we’re going to get Democracy…in action.

Beware the Lawyers!

:cactus: