Association for native English-speaking instructors?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

I love the history lesson about sodomy in Tazmania. There are still sodomy laws here in the US. I guess that includes women who like that sort of thing.

For the last post, all I gotta say is I know a lot of ex-Kansas ians, and none of them live in Kansas anymore. It’s not a fantasy land there either. Evangelical preachers, small towns, prejudice against Indians (maybe blacks, Latinos, Asians, Middle Easterners, Jews, etc. also) not to mention the second poorest city(Kansas City) in the US next to New Orleans. =bad reference

Also, I don’t know who your friend is, but he’s just working, a worker, like the rest of us. However, let’s say my friend (to remain nameless) runs an illegal cram school at his apartment, has three groups of 4-6 kids, charging 30,000 TWdollars each group totaling around 90,000 dollars a month for just himself. That is the same hours you are putting in. Almost twice the money. If he adds a foreigner, the price goes up, but he has to pay the foreigner 1/3 because it is illegal. He is making the same amount of money just by having a foreigner instead of himself.

Taiwan is not a third world country, nor a Second world country. There is money out there, people are making it.

22

No two conditions under which unions form in any country will ever be identical, as each union forms under its own situation according to the needs of the workers. It doesn’t take away though from the fact that freedom of association is a basic human right, and following from that, every human has the right to form a union, even in the most adverse of conditions. The instinct for humans to cluster together to protect themselves and advance their mutual interests is a most natural and basic one, and to deny oneself of that protection mechanism is to leave oneself open to attack from those who would take advantage of the individual (ie, employers in this case). Unless of course you are of a libertarian bent and think every man should fend for himself, ie, the law of the jungle, which is a wonderful ideology for those at the top of the food chain, not so good for those at the bottom. And we teachers are a long way from the top of the food chain here in Taiwan.

Also consider that Australia was a land of migrants 150 years ago. Many of the unions were started by foreigners, especially Scots and English. And if a foreigner comes to work in our countries, do we deny them the right to join unions? No, not in a civilised country. Recently in Australia it was discovered that, under the previous PM’s disgraceful labor laws, employers were being alowed to bring in Filipino workers for the construction industry on special visas that allowed them to be paid well below Award rates, exempt from OH&S laws, and housed in outageously expensive dormitory style accomodation which swallowed up most their meagre earnings. Once it came to the newspapers, the CFMEU, one of the biggest unions, stepped in and took them as members and fought their cases.

I think you are right though, that any Union that foreign teachers join, should be domestically based, and be set up for the protection of Taiwanese workers too. And it would only be logical to extend the membership of such an association to Chinese Teachers as well. There is no reason to exclude any worker in our industry. Personally I think it would be great if we could join the public school teachers union, and I would have by now, but I have search the internet high and low and not been able to find a trace of one in existence. So if there is one, we should join it, and perhaps seek to create a new Division within it for EFL teachers. If there is not one, maybe we need to help form one. Alternatively, if they will not have us in their union, we should form a new one, possibly for teachers in all independent (private) schools who are excluded from the public schools union. If necessary, you could have different chapters or divisions within, say one for EFL industry teachers (including CT’s), another for other foreign language instructors.

Regarding illegal teachers, although it should not be a principle objective of the Union, the Union could examine the issues preventing illegal teachers from becoming legal and work toward finding solutions for them.

Regarding getting people to “buy into it”. It is a matter of self preservation really. Why WOULDN’T you join an Association that is going to lobby and rally for your rights. I happily pay A$400 a year in Australia for my union dues as I know the money is going toward improving my conditions, and anyway, it’s tax deductible. It’s a bit like paying taxes - sure we could all find more interesting things to do with our money, but where would we be without them?

Personally i am not in favor or a “free membership” union. For one thing, where else would the union get it’s funding from? For another thing, members are always more committed to organisations when they have to pay to belong to them. There is no point having a union if the members are not committed to it. Payment of a union due creates a contract and formalises the relationship between member and union, which binds both parties in a mutually beneficial way.

I am a relative newcomer to Taiwan so I am not as familiar as many of you with the business culture. That is why the experience of those who have been here a long time will be so invaluable to such an organisation. But I do know that I am a free person, I know my human rights and I do know that nowhere in the world should I, nor anyone else, be forced to live on our knees. Workers rights are human rights. All workers have rights, everywhere. But it is up to us to fight for them, for they will not be given freely. If you don’t fight for them you will surely lose them.

23

A Union is a Non Governmental Organization. It means there can be donations, fundraisers (illegal but tax deducable) and dues.

Actually, there is no Union called a Union (at least not in the US) they are called by other names such as the United Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (UBEW) the United Automotive Brotherhood of Autoworkers (UAW) United Steeelworkers Union (USW) correct me if I am wrong, none of those names said Union.

There is nothing about Union in the name of the organization. It is simply that. An organization. Who coined the phrase Union?

Oh, I am not politically correct. Just remember, I can see these “union” sites and they did not say union, only acted union.

Give me the heads up on AZ, NZ etc. bra

24

A bunch of whiny overpaid foreigners complaining that they want even MORE. That’s the response you’ll get from the Taiwanese. Guaranteed.
Your friend, for example – I take it by citing him you’re trying to claim that his desperate unhappiness and exploited life is representative of the Taiwanese, although in 20 years I’ve yet to meet anyone in QUITE such a desperate situation – how do you think HE would look upon the idea of foreigners earning, what? NT$600 an hour with afternoons and weekends free, for example? Or the government, for that matter?

It’s one thing to campaign for the truly exploited such as the foreign blue collar workers – there’s enough underlying guilt in society about that situation that it could tip the balance in the workers’ favour, eventually, and I hope it does. But to campaign in that way for people who are already privileged and grossly overpaid in many peoples’ eyes? Good luck with that.

25

No one has said that in Taiwan, one doesn’t have the freedom of association.

Foreign EFL teachers typically make 6 to 12 times the minimum wage, and well about the average Taiwanese salary. I don’t feel that’s too bad, and many Taiwanese think it’s rediculous.

This isn’t Australia. Taiwanese are not the fruit salads that the US or Australia are. Taiwan is fairly homogeneous, with most of the people coming from China. Like Japan, such homogenous societies are a bit suspicious of foreigners and don’t take well with us telling them what they’re doing “wrong”.

There is a union for public school teachers and frankly, they don’t like us very much. They feel we are taking jobs from them. They frequently pressure the government to crack down on those teaching illegally and make it more restrictive to get legal.

The illegals I’ve met have typically been from countries where English is not the native language. I’ve met Germans, Dutch and Central Americans teaching illegally. They may also not have a college degree. Neither situation would the government be open minded toward accepting as EFL teachers.

I don’t think there are many who feel so downtrodden as an EFL teacher here, except perhaps for lotusblossom. And I might join the organization if I believed it had a reasonable chance of success. I would be more interested in a professional organization that promoted professional development and networking.

Forced to live on your knees? Aren’t you being a bit dramatic about the lot of an EFL teacher in Taiwan?

I’ve only been here just over 3 years. I think I have it pretty good, considering the economics of Taiwan.

And personally, I am a guest here. This is not my country. I don’t feel right about screaming for rights when I don’t feel any of mine have been violated. No thumb screws going on here.

I’m not suggesting Kansas is Nirvana. It’s more a Wizard of Oz reference in that we’re not in our hometown anymore and things are just gonna be different.

One pearl of wisdom many long-timers have shared with me is that the foreigners who come here and try to change the Taiwanese, end up going crazy or at least are very unhappy. Those who do the best are the ones who can accept or at least tolerate the different way of thinking and work with it.

26

[quote=“CraigTPE”]Foreign EFL teachers typically make 6 to 12 times the minimum wage, and well about the average Taiwanese salary. I don’t feel that’s too bad, and many Taiwanese think it’s rediculous.

[quote]

That’s a fairly obnoxious viewpoint, though.

I make 5 times the minimum wage in the UK. Why the hell would someone go and live on the other side of the world where people don’t want them for less? ‘Cultural exchange’? ‘Love of the job’? Hardly likely? Why on EARTH would someone uproot themselves to live away from their families for a pittance? 600 NT is less than double the minimum wage in my country.

OK, so I could live fine on min wage in Taiwan, but where does provision for sickness, old age, etc come from without the support of my family or government?

Taiwan doesn’t need foreign teachers? Fine. Stop hiring them. It’s not the greedy avaricious teachers who charge the tuition fees.

Teaching is a service which must be paid for.

27

(Hit ‘send’ too soon)

, yet it is fairly impossible to demand more than market value. You are worth what people will pay, so the basic choice is ‘do it or don’t do it.’

28

We’re not talking about wages in in the UK We’re talking about Taiwan. You pay Taiwan’s cost of living, not the UK’s. And obviously there’s a whole shit-load of people willing to uproot and come to Taiwan to work for 600NT/hr. If that wasn’t the case, and if fewer people were coming here, then the wage would go up.

But you’re not working for minimum wage, are you? Have a job at 7-11? And how you provide for sickness, old age, etc is not the concern of Taiwan. They need to take care of their own. We came here knowing what was up, and it’s up to us to handle our issues, nobody else.

I think Taiwan does need native speakers to teach EFL, but the question is at what cost?

I don’t know any EFL teacher working for free.

But we digress. This thread is about unionizing foreign EFL teachers. I don’t see it happening in my lifetime.

29

So Joe Blow comes over here at the ripe old age of 22 with his crushing student loan waiting to be repaid.
“Yes, we’ll give you a job. Sign here. Now, go over there to “Stephen” who’ll collect your NT$3,000 union dues for this year. What’s that? You don’t want to pay it? Oh, no problem. Just feel free to ignore “Stephen” from now on. There’s nothing he’d love more than a closed shop, but that 'aint going to happen.”

30

Sure, CraigTPE, but my old age has to be paid for by my employment, unless I take up crime. Do I have the right to stay in Taiwan if I get sick and can’t work? No, my ARC is fixed to my work permit, so if I get sick, I have to be able to pay to repatriate myself and get myself to hospital. I have no safety net whatever. I am not asking Taiwan to pay for my life, but it’s shitty and stupid to say that because I am a teacher in Taiwan I should have a lower standard of living. Sure, in Taiwan, I can go on holidays, etc, but what use is that in the long term.

Taiwanese English cram school teacher earn less (not always), but they have their families, their culture, and a zillion other safety nets to fall back on. They don’t have to leave the country if their boss decides they aren’t needed.

If Taiwan wants qualified committed people who will stay the course, people from my country will find that problematic because, unless they marry a local or get citizenship, it’s not financially viable in the long term. If they want kids who want to play around in Asia for a few years, that’s what they get. The teachers who do well in Taiwan tend to be married to local women and so have easier visa situations and a mortgage and family here.

Because of my 10 year working holiday in Asia, I have no home, no pension, no employment prospects and very little money. That’s fine, I figured that out when I was in my early twenties.A professional in any field has to consider her future. Am I going to retire in Taiwan and die on the other side of the world from my family? If not, how do I pay for a home to live in when I’m 70? Obviously, I’m not saying that Taiwan has to pay for this, but I have to think about

Please understand, I am not advocating that Taiwan pays more for its English teachers; Taiwan can’t afford it and the benefits to the country are too intangible. But any d******p who says that I should get the same as some 25 year old in an office or a clerk in a 7-11 can go fck themselves in any country. It’s ignorant and insulting.

Anyway, this is the 4 millionth earnest and thoughtful post I’ve written on this topic on flob. S’getting old. might just stick to taking the piss out of newbies in future.

31

At the risk of repeating myself, nobody said you should get the same as someone working in a 7-11. I said you (we) make between 6 and 12 times someone who does, an attempt to put wages into perspective of the Taiwan market. Why is that so difficult to grasp? Your comment above is “ignorant and insulting”.

32

At the risk of repeating myself, nobody said you should get the same as someone working in a 7-11. I said you (we) make between 6 and 12 times someone who does, an attempt to put wages into perspective of the Taiwan market. Why is that so difficult to grasp? Your comment above is “ignorant and insulting”.[/quote]

I do grasp it. It’s a completely irrelevent thing to point out, though. What is your point? The two things are not related in any way.

33

You could search the topic? I’ve done this argument already.

34

Yes they are.

It’s senseless to come to a country and ignore the market. Some seem to have this mindset that the pay and benefits here should somehow be connected to what they were getting back home or what they could get in another country. The point is that pay and benefits in Taiwan are subject to the market in Taiwan, nowhere else. So the minimum and average wage scales here have a hell of a lot more relevance than what someone was making back home.

All those “social security” things you brought up are certainly things to consider…BEFORE coming to Taiwan. And I’m sure the Taiwanese government doesn’t give a rat’s patoot about the social security of foreigners, despite the fact that it may keep some of us from coming in the first place. THAT is a completely irrelevant thing to point out, other than to warn off people who have false expectations before they come here.

Sorry if this opens another can of worms, but the whole argument of pay, benefits and rights of association, feels like the one being made by illegal immigrants in the US. Whether someone goes to another country legally or illegally, it seems strange for them to spend so much energy bitching about the place and demanding things. If I had a problem with the program here, I wouldn’t unionize. I’d go home.

35

I think some people are missing the point of what unions are about and why they form. I don’t understand all this concern about the Taiwanese not supporting it because “we already get paid well enough and they won’t sympathise with us”. Who ever said you need Taiwanese popular support to make a Union happen? Unions are started by the workers in the industry themselves. You don’t need to get approval from anyone in the population. Gees, if you had to have popular approval to start a union they wouldn’t exist! No one can stop a Union from forming. It’s a human right and legally or illegally, you can form a Union. It’s what the union does after that which will determine it’s future. But there’s not a damn thing outsiders can do about it.

Unions will only ever be favored by the Progressives in a society. Unions go against everything that Conservatives stand for, so they will never support them. I suspect we have a few Conservatives on this thread! When you start a Union, yes, you do battle against the odds and the naysayers, the Cons will do everything they can to stop unions forming. It’s not supposed to be an easy path to untold riches. But unions do exist in Taiwan, and there are activists in the Tawianese labor movement who will help us to do it, and they know that it is in the Taiwanese peoples’ best interests for us to do it. There are plenty of progressives in Taiwan, and we would not be alone on this path.

The other thing is, forming a Union is not necessarily about making more money for ourselves. That is pretty low down in my list of priorities anyway. It’s about improving workplace conditions in general, ensuring fairer contracts, setting standards for contract conditions, increasing the transparency of the system so newcomers know exactly what they are getting themselves into and don’t have to learn by painful experience and trial & error, improving the quality of the teaching environment so we can deliver better lessons, making employers more accountable and making them prepare better syllabi and take on more of the admin and support work required to enable us to deliver better teaching (which they currently foist onto us), improving OH&S standards to avoid workplace injuries, and making bosses pay for things we currently do for them for free like (leaving homework and prep time out of it for now) attending training and meetings, doing reports, improving their shoddy syllabi, etc (after all, they are profit making businesses, not charities).

You don’t know any EFL teacher who works for free? I do. Every single one of us who only gets paid for class hours! I do at least another hour outside for every hour inside the classroom. And while many of us have been pursaded to accept the bosses’ argument that our outside hours are part of our classroom hourly rate, in reality this is just a straight out con. If you consider all our out of class work we do, it brings our effective hourly rate right down much closer to basically the average Taiwanese hourly wage. The inflated hourly rate they quote us is nothing but an average wage dressed up in sugar candy coating. So, either we are being paid a low to average wage, or we are being paid a high wage and doing the rest for free. Take your pick.

And why haven’t teachers wages gone up over time? I understand that in fact they have gone down. You can try and argue it’s the market forces but that just doesn’t make sense as EFL teachers are in constant demand. There aint much unemployment amongst us, except by choice. So forget the market forces argument. Why are we falling behind? For a start, there’s no one representing us out there negotiating collectively with the employers and arguing our wage case. At the moment, completely disorganised as we are, and squabbling amongst each other for jobs instead of co-operating together, we are completely at the mercy of the bosses to decide what we get paid. Do you really think they are going to grant us a wage increase from the goodness of their hearts? If you don’t ask, you don’t get. We need to do a bit more asking, and it is always more effective to have 20,000 united teachers asking than just one lone person in there with the boss. We only have strength in numbers (well, except some of the long time “elite” who have found their channels, done their deals, want to sit back and take pleasure watching the newbies go through the same struggle they had to, and think they can play the Taiwan game solo. But then they are probably not going to be interested in joining a Union anyway, and may actively oppose it if they think it might erode their stature. But lets hope not, because it would be good to have their experience on board).

36

Why is there a need for teachers, why is there a need for English?

When I got my masters at the same time a Taiwanese got their masters, the Taiwan person got hired, I got hired. Difference was, they got more money. Said persons husband came to the US, got hired for even more money.

Two people, can’t really speak English, a lot of US dollars.

I can go on and on about the Taiwan success stories, if you want.

Someone is making money, either in your country or Taiwan.

37

[quote=“freegaynhappy”] …freedom of association is a basic human right…
[/quote]

Maybe, but do people also have the actual “legal right” to bargain collectively?

Also, if your union gets off the ground and threatens to eat into somebody’s profits, how long will it be till they get the government to deport you, and if they can’t do that, send the goons around?

Sorry if these points have been covered already.

38

[quote=“CraigTPE”]
Sorry if this opens another can of worms[/quote]

Nope, not at all. There are a hundred threads which say the same as both of us.

39

Basic human rights are set out in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, specifically, refer to Article 20(para 1) and 23(para 4). Take a look
un.org/Overview/rights.html
These are not laws as such, they are universal rights, internationally recognised as necessary for a civilised society. Yes, some countries have made laws that over-rule these rights. These however are bad laws, from bad governments, that go against international agreement and make a country less civilised. My own country until very recently was breaching its international obligations under the UNDHR and other UN agreements regarding refugees by denying refugees their right to asylum, but, as I have said previously, we the people fought against those bad laws and have now tossed that government out and removed those bad laws to bring Australia back into UN compliance. Many of the people who lead that charge against our bad laws were foreigners themselves - refugees no less, whose rights had been taken away from them, who took legal action and challenged the govt from their prison cells where our govt had locked them up for up to 7 years. Indeed, the laws would not have changed without these foreigners’ efforts. I believe it is up to free people to fight bad laws and fight for a civilised world, wherever we find ourselves, and I make no apology that I feel the need to do that in this country. I wont stand by in the face of injustice, and there are far worse things that can happen to people if I do nothing, than me being deported, if that is the end result. One person can be easily be deported, true. But 10,000 english teachers acting in unison cannot be. And that is why, if we are to make any progress in improving our position, we need to do it together.

40

Because it’s THEIR country, not ours. It’s poor form to march into someone else’s home and start pushing them around and start telling them how it’s done.

I’m about as far left on the political spectrum as it gets, however I don’t believe unions are the be-all end-all that you seem to suggest. I grew up in the Rust Belt in the US, and witnessed first-hand how unions drove the US auto industry into the ground. I also spent 20 years in the airline industry and shook my head as unions of bankrupted airlines struck, effectively closing down the company for good.

Yes unions exist in Taiwan. They are like social clubs, planning employee parties and stuff. The only union I’ve heard of that has actually pushed to improve the lot of it’s members is the teachers union in how they lobby the government against US foreign EFL teachers. Ironic, though, that the pay and benefits of public school teachers here has actually decreased over the years. My partner’s parents are both retired school teachers. They get full pay, high-interest savings, low-interest loans and all kinds of other benefits. Today, nothing close. I confess, though, I only have anecdotal information about union activities here from my adult business students.

I work with two licensed teachers from the US and both say that this is a ridiculous argument. Even in their teaching jobs back home, prep time was simply part of the package. Out of a full day’s teaching schedule, they got 1 office hour daily, which didn’t cover it. It’s fair to expect a certain amount of prep time. How much, is up to the person. I know foreign EFL teachers who won’t do a damn thing they’re not directly paid for. They walk in at the last minute, and leave immediately after class. Their choice.

There is a constant influx of people coming into Taiwan who plan to make money teaching EFL. A never ending supply of fresh meat, willing to work at entry-level wages. (supply goes up). The birthrate in Taiwan is declining, or so they say. I find it hard to believe when every place I go is teeming with kids, but so be it. There are fewer students. (demand goes down) Supply out strips demand, badda bing badda boom, wages go down.

I think you’re being unfair to the long-timers here. This board is full of advice from them on how to best manage the system in Taiwan. just as it is full of newbies who ignore their advice and think they can change the way it’s done in Taiwan. You simply dismiss their argument in your unfailing support of unionization. I’ve gotten an immense amount of support and help from long-timers I know. I appreciate their advice.

Besides believing that it’s inappropriate for a guest in a country to demand anything, and that the wage range for foreign EFL teachers in Taiwan is in line with the market, I’m doubtful on the success of organizing a group of people that is largely transient.