I read in the Korea times that there are a group of teachers in Korea that are trying to form a group for English speaking instructors.
Is there anything like this in Taiwan? Any formal type of organization? Or is everyone just here individually trying not to stir up anything?
No, nothing formal, or informal for that matter. Every now and then someone comes up with the idea of forming an association, but it is not - in my opinion - anything that will happen.
I think it might be the fact that so many teachers here are young and transient, in to make some coin for a year or two and then home again, so they don’t know enough about the ins and outs of dealing with officialdom, bosses, etc., while most of the long-termers, who would be the ones to set something like that up, already have their shit together and know how to play the game with the bosses, etc. and therefore have little need for such an association.
Or maybe its just that all teachers are lazy good-for-nothing bastards. Yes, that’s probably it.
The fellow who wears a girly skirt but insists on us calling it a kilt wrote: [quote]Or maybe its just that all teachers are lazy good-for-nothing bastards. Yes, that’s probably it.[/quote]
Hey, don’t generalise. It’s not “all” teachers, just 90 percent or so.
But yes, the other points you mentioned are pretty spot on. There’s also the fact that most teachers dislike other teachers (because they, I mean we, are losers).
Hey, don’t generalise. It’s not “all” teachers, just 90 percent or so.
But yes, the other points you mentioned are pretty spot on. There’s also the fact that most teachers dislike other teachers (because they, I mean we, are losers).[/quote]
But I like everyone.
The Funkster wrote: [quote]But I like everyone.[/quote]
Christ. I said “most teachers” - MOST. Does everything have to be black and white? I’m bloody well trying to have nuanced discussion here. Nuance. No, it’s not a French wine. Look it up.
So along with the transients,
the teachers don’t like each other,
we are all from different countries,
The veterans could care less about what happens to the newbies
and the competition for the limited resources keeps everyone from attempting to join together…
I am a relatively new teacher in Taiwan (4 months) and am already staggered by the poor treatment that foreign teachers receive here. Granted, I come from Australia, a country with some of the best labor conditions in the world, won through 100 years of blood sweat and tears of Union struggle. But that doesn’t excuse Taiwanese schools for the exploitative practices they employ here. The whole concept of “unpaid overtime” and “unpaid holidays” and “unpaid sick leave”, “contract breach penalties” (whether imposed on locals or foreigners) are outrageous abuses of workers, which have unfortunately come to be accepted as the norm in Taiwan.
I have searched the various forums throughout Taiwan for any information on Unions for foreign teachers (or any teachers for that matter) and have found absolutely zero. This I find quite curious, and i am wondering if there is any particular reason why, in a country where foreign teachers are screwed around so much, there is no discussion of forming a foreign teachers Union? I understand that other asian countries do have foreign teacher Unions (Japan for starters).
What I have managed to find out is that teachers and civil servants in Taiwan are banned from forming Unions. The story goes that a few years ago, the public school teachers actually did organise themselves and made some demands. The government were worried that this discontent from teachers might spread, so it promptly looked after them with some pretty cozy conditions to shut them up in return for them not disrupting the “industrial harmony” of Taiwan. There has been no movement toward unionism since. Unfortunately, private school and foreign teachers seem to have been left out in the cold.
To my mind, and under the UN Declaration of Human Rights, freedom of association (which includes the right to form trade unions) is a fundamental and inalienable human right that cannot be taken away by any government that is signatory to this declaration. Now, I know Taiwan is a special case because the ROC/PROC situation, but surely Taiwan would claim to adhere to the UN Declaration of Human Rights? Regardless, it remains every human’s inalienable right to associate freely in forming trade unions, and law or no law, foreign teachers should organise themselves into a Union to try to address many of the problems that we are facing working in Taiwan.
The local public school teachers might have been bought off by the government, as a result of them organising themselves sufficiently. But we foreign teachers have yet to organise ourselves and begin a collective struggle, and surely no progress with improving our position here will be made until we take on that fight. We must remember one of the lessons of history, that freedoms and right are never willingly granted by those in power. They are won by struggle. If we just sit and wait for things to improve they won’t. They will only improve if we force them to.
I am interested to hear other teachers’ thoughts on this subject.
plus… you’ll be walking a fine, dim line of legality, as furriners and politics do not quite mix well… (association could be seen as a political entity, could be interpreted as outside of your visa’s scope, hence getting you kicked out on your fanny).
[quote=“kwaz666”]So along with the transients,
the teachers don’t like each other,
we are all from different countries,
and the competition for the limited resources keeps everyone from attempting to join together…[/quote]
It does sound a little like why there was no real trade union movement in the early days of the US, doesn’t it? (except for the limited resources part)
I got to say, I like freegaynhappy,
Firstly cause his name,
Secondly his research skills.
As far as the organization goes, it does not have to be a union exactly, nut an organization, which would be referred to as an NGO or NPO.
Non Government Organization
Begun as a source for the veterans to help the new people out and show them the ropes and eventually, some issues taken to a higher authority when someone is mistreated.
As long as the word gets out, that could help and would give ET’s a voice.
Does anyone remember this classic from 2006? http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=51421&start=0
But the market is already flooded with young, inexperienced economic migrants from Canada and S. Africa, isn’t it?
I’m not in the teaching game, but from where I stand, what benefits would such an association provide for the “veterans” that you say would set this up? Yes, it would be nice for newcomers, but I can’t see ANY benefits for those who would actually establish it. If anything, such an association would actually be detrimental to the job opportunities for such people.
As I said, maybe I’m completely wrong – it’s not my area – but that’s how I see it.
But the market is already flooded with young, inexperienced economic migrants from Canada and S. Africa, isn’t it?
I’m not in the teaching game, but from where I stand, what benefits would such an association provide for the “veterans” that you say would set this up? Yes, it would be nice for newcomers, but I can’t see ANY benefits for those who would actually establish it. If anything, such an association would actually be detrimental to the job opportunities for such people.
As I said, maybe I’m completely wrong – it’s not my area – but that’s how I see it.
Also, from what I’ve seen and heard of it, the Council for Labour Affairs is very adept at handling cases of mistreatment. Its by NO means a tool of the bosses. If anything, they tend to side with the employee.
Genius
Where is this guy now?
I think the idea of a union or mass association is impractical because of the transience of the teaching crowd. But I think some kind of representative organization that acted on behalf of teachers would be possible. It would need to consist mainly of longtermers: If it was all people with JFRV’s and APRC’s, then there wouldn’t be any big legal obstacles. You could get a lawyer to make sure it was kosher, (or a Jewish butcher, to make sure it was legal.)
What could it do? Lobby the government for change through examination of best practices worldwide, provide information and counselling to teachers, publicize abuses, facilitate training and a self-improvement ethos. The overall goal could be to upgrade the entire teaching environment, from both the teacher and school sides. The reason for that? Get some respect, and quality of life in our jobs.
What’s in it for the longtermers? Status, glory, influence, self-esteem.
The best type of person would be someone who has a low opinion of the state of EFL in Taiwan, but isn’t content to simply whine about it. Sadly, that rules out most of the Brits! 
I’m not an expert on unions, other than being born and raised in the Rust Belt. Nor am I an expert on Taiwan labor laws. But a few random thoughts come to mind:
The few people I’ve talked to in Taiwanese companies with unions describe them more as social event organizers rather than negotiators of pay and work rules. Taiwan wouldn’t know how to handle a REAL union.
In the US history, I sincerely believe unions protected workers who were dependent on their job. The employers knew it and were exploiting the crap out of them. Here, few foreign teachers could be considered “dependent” on these jobs. We can leave anytime, an option that was not so readily available to workers in the US in the past where unions were so needed. Of course now they’ve outlived their usefulness and have helped to drive the US auto and US airline industries into the ground with wages and work rules uncompetitive in the world marketplace.
The feeling I get in Taiwan is that some (maybe many) foreign teachers view each other as competitors for a limited number of decent jobs or lucrative private students. That’s not exactly conducive to forming a union to help each other out.
The supply of foreign teachers is obviously larger than the demand, or wages would rise naturally. There is a constant arrival of fresh meat. What would a union do? Stand at the airport to inform all new arrivals of the union requirement? As long as there are people willing to work at an offered wage, not much chance of getting it raised.
Unions rarely promote anything other than higher wages, improved work conditions and job security for it’s members. A professional association would be something to accomplish these other things, and a great idea.
Ultimately, few people in this country would consider foreign EFL workers “exploited”. Crabbing about low pay and unreasonable work rules has rarely found a sympathetic ear outside of our own community. Most locals think we have it pretty good, and I’ve even sensed resentment.
If there were a credible, legitimate professional association of foreign EFL teachers dedicated to improving teacher skills, networking and liaising with government agencies & employers, I’d consider it.
But EFL is shit depressing and exploitative in the UK, France and Thailand as well (the places I have taught). Nature of the beast. Just seems absurd and silly to unionise.
‘I’m calling on the union!’
‘I’m cancelling your work permit!’
Thanks for all your comments, and especially that reference to the old thread in 1996 - I have to admit I had a good laugh! But I was also pretty shocked at the negativity by the “elders” in this place. I still don’t know whether the whole thing was a hoax or not but it really gave me a great insight into the situation here. I’m glad there were at least some people who were prepared to take the idea of a union/association seriously anyway.
A few people have said that Unions have no role amongst well paid workers and therefore a Union could not work here. I just want to say that in Australia we still have very strong Unions (they just booted former PM John Howard out of office because he threatened to destroy the unions), and many of our union members are some of the highest paid workers in the country. And our living standard is one of the highest in the world. We have achieved that THROUGH the unions. It is a fact that workers who are members of unions are higher paid than those who are not. We even have unions for managers, engineers and scientists, none of whom are poorly paid or exploited. Unions always have a role in society no matter how affluent the workers. And teachers have great unions in Australia. EFL teachers are in the Independent Teachers Union - we have a great Award setting out our conditions and as a result are probably the highest paid EFL teachers outside the Middle East. Even our bus drivers in Sydney are 99% unionised, and do you know what they earn? Minimum A$43,000 pa, but many are earning up to A$80,000 pa with overtime.
Others said that a Union could never work because teachers in Taiwan are too competitive against each other for jobs. But, through the Depression years, when the unemployed were fighting amongst each other for jobs, you know what they did? They formed a union of unemployed workers to organise themselves, stopped the fighting for limited jobs, campaigned for government assistance and improved their lives.
If there is so much competition for jobs in Taiwan, and teachers are undercutting each other to get them (which is a bit hard to work out because according to the Taiwanese there is a shortage of English teachers, so which is it?), then that is even more reason why we need a union. Unorganised, we are left to fight amongst ourselves, undercutting and accepting lesser conditions than we should. But if there was a benchmark set for our conditions then we would know what is an acceptable offer and what is not, and we could make our decisions accordingly. Once a benchmark or standard is agreed, whether it is made official or not, I believe most good teachers and recruiters would observe it, and in time schools would work out that they need to meet the standard to retain good teachers. While there is no collective voice or benchmark working conditions for us foreign teachers, schools will always have the upper hand, there are no two ways about it. The ONLY way to improve our conditions is to act collectively.
If you think you have it pretty good now, imagine how good you could have it if you were organised? You’ve got to remember, we are living in the free market world. Bosses and companies are free to collect and gather together to work out how they can better screw the workers, and it is up to us to level the playing field by organising ourselves in the same way. We can make the free market work to our advantage by organising collectively. If we can gather together and improve our lot, then we should. By doing so, we will also be helping all other lower paid workers in the economy to improve their lot too, because the better the deal we get it, the better the deal they can argue for too. Remember it’s not through scarcity of profit that workers are lowly paid here - its because the bosses are keeping a far bigger slice of the pie than they should be. You all know that the Taiwanese get screwed in this country. We can help them by getting organised and help them in turn get a bigger slice.
Some suggested we should go and help the foreign migrant workers instead of helping ourselves. Why? Because it is too hard to organise ourselves so we should go and tell others to go and put their jobs on the line instead??? Isn’t that slightly hypocritical? How can you help another worker organise when you aren’t prepared to go through the struggle yourself? It is precisely through the struggle that you learn how to organise. It’s a lot easier for us, as educated, relatively well off workers, to organise than for these poor exploited Filipinos. I suggest we should organise ourselves first, and then use our experience and resources to help other foreign workers. If we can’t organise ourselves we are not qualified to lecture them about what they should do.
Illegal to form teachers unions? Of course it is! But that is a bad law, it goes against the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and bad laws should be broken. All union movements were born out of struggle and had to overcome bad laws designed to impede them. Just because a law exists is no reason not to fight to have it overturned. Sodomy was still illegal in Tasmania until about 8 years ago, when a group of gay activists decided to have sex and then front up to the local police station the next morning and confessed their crime. They dared the authorities to arrest and charge them. Of course, the police refused. Can you imagine them trying to get the evidence for court??? That kicked off a revolution in Tasmania, and helped by a national boycott against Cadburys Chocolates (their factory was in Tasmania), two years later Tasmania completed overturned its laws and now has the most liberal laws, and the lowest, equal age of consent, of any state in Australia. The fight for gay marriage rights goes on worldwide right now and we defy the law every day.
I really feel for the Taiwanese - they’ve got it hard here. My Taiwanese partner goes to work at 7.30am every day and his boss keeps him there until 9pm most nights. The he will come home and write more reports. But that is typical here. He is so depressed by it, but he can see no way clear of it, so he just goes on with life every day, just getting through, just surviving. No real life outside of work. He says he will be happy just to help his mum pay off her house and then he doesn’t mind if he dies because there is nothing much else to live for. What sort of life is that? Its exacerbated by the fact he is gay in an extremely closetted society - gay pride is not very big here unfortunately. But you get the picture. The ordinary Taiwanese is completely screwed.
Now you can say, “we’re in Taiwan, thats the way it is - if you dont like it then get out”, or you can try to make a difference to these poor people while you’re here. Accept the exploitative culture? Bullsh_t! Stand up for basic human rights and decency - yes! For those who are just here in Taiwan to make a quick buck and leave, you are excused if you don’t want to participate in this discussion, because I guess it’s not really meant for you anyway. But if you actually believe in making a difference to peoples’ lives other than your own during your short time on this planet, then welcome!
Let’s get positive!
I get that unions have helped in Australia and many other places. One distinct difference between the examples you cite and what you suggest for here is that those cases were citizens in their home country fighting to survive. I get what you’re saying about human rights and all, but as a guest in Taiwan, we have little to say about how Taiwan does it’s business. Don’t think the government wouldn’t hesitate to boot our hineys out of the country if it perceived a threat to it’s economy. I suspect the average citizen would not be sympathetic to our cause, either. Many already think we’re spoiled and overpaid.
It would be different if the locals were to organize, though. Now THERE is some just cause for organizing. My partner works 3 times as many hours as I do for about 1/3 of the pay.
How familiar are you with the business culture here and the market of foreign teachers? How do you get transients who are here for a year or 2 at a time to buy into it? How do you include all those who are even teaching illegally?
Not trying to be negative, just realistic. We’re not in Kansas anymore. 