Backlash against Taiwan independence

The United Nations has backlashed against all the ridiculous appeals of the Taiwan Independence advocates . . . . . now Taiwan’s data is listed directly as a Province of the PRC. … p?crID=158

Well, you say . . . . in fact this has been going on for some time . . . . yes maybe so, but it points to the FACT that Taiwan independence is a dead issue on the world stage. The answer is “No.”

Taiwan is not a sovereign country. The sooner the Taiwan independence advocates get that through their head, the better. It doesn’t matter if you have referenda twice a day, every day of the year, you cannot change the fact that Taiwan is not a sovereign country, and it is not recognized as a sovereign country by the world community.

In fact, if it were not for the USA, this entire island would have been seized by the commies long ago. Oh, yes! That is the answer! Become an overseas territory of the USA!!! Some people are advocating that now.

Yes . . . . that is it! There are two choices for Taiwan: (1) Become an overseas territory of the USA, and let the USA handle all your “national defense” matters . . . . so you would be a self governing territory, something like Puerto Rico in the early 1900’s, -or- (2) Become annexed to Mainland China . . . . .

Yes, those are the two choices as I see it for the future of Taiwan. Taiwan independence is a dead issue. At the present time it is impossible.

If I were you, I would go for the first option . . . . and the way to start is just to renounce the fiction that “October 25th is Retrocession Day” . . . . . yes, throw that ridiculous piece of historical and legal nonsense out the window . . . . . and you might find that everything else falls into place very nicely. You are still under the administrative authority of the USA from the post WWII period!

Yes, and that is mentioned in the post-war treaty too.

I seem to recall that this general line of reasoning was discussed in some threads on this website before . . . . but I can’t seem to find those threads now. Considering the established position of the United Nations (which neither you nor I have any ability to change, and which none of the Taiwan Independence advocacy groups have any ability to change, and which none of the ridiculous groups who go to New York every year to protest in front of the United Nations have any ability to change . . . . ) there are only the two active options as I have stated above for Taiwan’s future. (I don’t consider “maintaining the status quo” as an active type of option . . . . it just means you will be swallowed by the PRC at some point.)

Taiwan is not qualified to join the United Nations, because it is not a country! In fact, Taiwan was never a member of the UN before either. The Republic of China was a member of the UN, and it was representing Mainland China. Technically, it was not representing Taiwan. It was representing CHINA. And as soon as the UN decided that the PRC was the legitimate government of CHINA, of course the ROC (a government in exile on Taiwan) was kicked out!!! See . . . . that makes perfect sense because “October 25, 1945 was not Taiwan Retrocession Day.” There is a serious problem with all the thinking of the Taiwanese people, including the DPP, and that is that they have totally misinterpreted the meaning and significance of October 25, 1945 . . . . . hence, they feel that the world community is MISTREATING TAIWAN . . . . . but in fact, this is not true!!!

If you discard the nonsense that October 25, 1945, was “Retrocession Day” then all of the history of the last 60 years falls neatly into place. The Taiwan Relations Act views the government of Taiwan as the “Taiwan governing authorities” . . . . . and delegates Taiwan to the status of sub-sovereign foreign state equivalent. It all makes sense.

Taiwan, wake up!!

Bullshit legalisms. Taiwan is a country in all but name. Everybody knows this. If we allowed legal treaties signed ages ago to determine today’s reality, half of the world would still be split between Spain & Portugal. What is the U.N.'s position on the Treaty of Tordesillas? After all, they signed a treaty, on paper, it must be legally binding!

No. The fact of the matter is that self-determination of the peoples residing in lands under question determines all, and overrides any treaties signed after WWII that none of them had any say in. All treaties that were designed without first jumping through the hoops of the democratic process are thereby vull and noid. That makes all of the treaties you people bring up about Taiwan’s status illegal - because the consent of the people actually living in Taiwan was never obtained. Nobody asked the actual people of Taiwan whether they wanted to sign those 1945 treaties. I’m sorry, but democratic referendums trump treaties signed by unelected bureacrats. The right of self-determination trumps arcane legalisms (that can be twisted to advocate any possible position, depending on how slick your manipulation of words is).

Your point of view seems reasonable on the surface. However, marky is pointing out deeper truths than you are able to grasp. The UN doesn’t recognize Taiwan as a country, and neither does the USA, Canada, UK, etc. That is not something that you or I or anyone else posting on this website can change . . . . . I believe this is marky’s point. Hence, mod lang’s analysis, while well intended, is just more of the same rhetoric we have been hearing for the last twenty or thirty years . . . . . and it has not gotten the people of Taiwan anywhere.

Bullshit non-legalisms. Neither you nor I nor any of the other posters on this website determine the validity of treaties under international law. In case you are wondering about the status of these treaties, the US State Department has a publication called “Treaties in Force.” Maybe you better read it.

LOL. The only thing illegal is mod lang’s analysis. I say this not to be critical, but only to point out that mod lang’s view of the entire situation is what we have heard over and over for as long as most of us have been in Taiwan. Now, what have been the results of this analysis so far? Has it helped the people of Taiwan to move forward? No. What other positive benefits have been achieved? None.

I think that you are missing the deeper level of analysis that marky is offering. Your point of view may seem reasonable on casual analysis, but on a more profound level it falls apart. In other words, if the principle of “self-determination” (as specified in the UN Charter too) actually did trump arcane legalisms, then Taiwan would be a member of the United Nations today.

The fact that Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations, and is not considered to be eligible for membership therein, shows that this kind of analysis is not valid . . . . . . it doesn’t matter whether you or I or anyone else posting on this website agree with this, but the fact that “self-determination” is not a trump card (in the case of Taiwan), which so many of the posters on this website seem to think it is, needs to be seriously taken into your calculations.

Invalid. The important point here is not to have an argument . . . . . we have to look at the entire situation of Taiwan’s international position and see what strategies are workable, and what strategies can help the people of Taiwan move forward. The principle of “self-determination” for Taiwan has never been recognized, and it is not helping to get us anywhere. For the time being, it needs to be discarded, and other more workable alternatives need to be investigated. This is a very common sense approach, but unfortunately most of the people in Taiwan, including many of the posters on this website, have been brainwashed by the local media, and are unable to see that their viewpoints, if truly workable, would already have produced some results by now.

Taiwan has never been considered a country since 1945. If the principle of “self-determination” had any validity in such a context, then why isn’t Taiwan recognized as a country now? And in fact what we are seeing is that Taiwan’s international status continues to decline year after year after year. So what is the solution? Obviously, Taiwan needs a new modus operandi.

taiwan independence is something people here will have to decide if it is worth fighting for. it is a serious question.

becoming a us protectorate, on the other hand, will be decided only within the confines of internet chatrooms and tv talk shows. it is based only on legal arguments that fly in the face of history and reality. it is an absurd fantasy.

Quest: Try looking out your window sometime. Taiwan is a transformed country. 15 years ago it was an isolated, brutal dictatorship. Now it is messy but vibrant democracy where nobody goes to jail for what they believe.

That transformation is directly related to Taiwan’s emerging identity as an independent country. Even the mainstream media is beginning is beginning to get it–look the recent articles in the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal.

Mod lang is right. This is something the people of Taiwan are deciding themselves, and they have every right to do so.

BTW, you really made me laugh with your reference to being brainswashed by the local media. Do you even read the local media? The two biggest papers and most of the TV stations here oppose (to varying degrees) Taiwanese independence. Or are you referring to the three tiny English newspapers here?

What is the treaty in force that says Taiwan is a part of China?

The precedents are there. Do you think all the newly independent states throwing off the yoke of British, Dutch, French, Portugeuse, etc. colonialism post-WWII politely petitioned the U.N. to please allow them the right of independence under the bylines of Article 447 B, Paragraph 8 Footnote #981 C? No. From India to Vietnam to Zimbabwe to East Timor, they had to fight for it. They simply announced their independence, regardless of their current “legal” status under treaties and U.N. dictates written up by far-off bureaucrats in foreign lands, and the colonialist nations that “owned” those terrorities had to swallow their pride and deal with the new reality. No nation in history has ever become independent by petitioning to the U.N. No nation in history has ever become independent by appealing legalistic arguments to a court of law. If Taiwan wants to become independent, first Taiwan must declare independence, and if China is unable to coerce Taiwan by force, China will have to deal with the new reality the same way France had to deal with the new realities in French Indochina. The only reason that Taiwan is not considered an independent nation is that Taiwan has never claimed to be so - officially the policy is to asininely claim that they are the “Republic of China”, a claim that flies in face of all known reality. If it weren’t for the fact that hundreds of missiles were pointed at this island, the Taiwanese would have voted to recognize reality a long time ago, instead of the legalistic fictions that have dominated Taiwan/China relations for 60 years.

The fate of Taiwan’s indpendence is in the hands of CNN.

Go tell that to the Irish.

Go tell that to the Irish.[/quote]

I think that proves my point, actually. Don’t you think? Shouldn’t the fate of Ireland be up to the actual Irish people? Not up to the wankers in London and Boston.

the hawaiians re-declare indepenence about twice every year. pres. clinton formally apologized the the US’s illegal takeover from the hawaiian royal family. nonetheless, hawaii remains firmly within the power of the US.
because those who favor hawaiian indepence aren’t strong enough to shake off the shackles of their foreign occupier.
taiwan is in a similar, but different boat. the “waishengren”, the people who came over with the KMT circa 1945 run the show here (the education system stills parrots the KMT party lines) and are loathe to give it up. how can the taiwanese shake off the waishengren? everything in their socialization/education tells them that the waishengren is them.
hold the waishengren to the same standard they now insist upon for newly arriving “foreign” spouses.

That is incorrect. The reason why Hawaii isn’t independent is that the majority of the residents in that state wish to remain a part of the U.S. The independence advocates are an identity-politics minority.

A better example you should have brought up would have been Puerto Rico.

It wasn’t that long ago that the UN didn’t recognize Kazakhstan, either- or the other countries of the former USSR- or Slovenia, or Croatia, Bangla Desh etc.

Situations change- though admittedly this one is unlikely to.

Taiwan is a country, perhaps not legally, not officially, but it is still a country.

New Premier Frank Hsieh seems to be severely downplaying the “independence” rhetoric, since he feels there is no solid national consensus about it yet …

But more importantly, what will be the expected effect of the PRC’s anti-succesion law on the Taiwan Independence movement?

[quote=“marky”]The United Nations has backlashed against all the ridiculous appeals of the Taiwan Independence advocates . . . . . now Taiwan’s data is listed directly as a Province of the PRC. … p?crID=158

Well, you say . . . . in fact this has been going on for some time . . . . yes maybe so[/quote]

geez, do you think contradicting yourself in your second sentence gives your argument more weight? :unamused:

the un also didn’t recognize the people’s republic of china as a country for decades and took the position that all of china was ruled by the kmt from taipei.

when are china backers going to learn not to use the un to support their arguments? :loco:

My Countrymen,
the UN turned its back on our fair country in 1971. And therefore I would like to point out that we will probably be in this conflict, if there is one, alone.
–The Defender Duke

No, our Japanese and American soldiers will be more than happy to die for our cause of an Independent Taiwan. They say so on the TV every night. God Bless those AIT representatives on TV.

If one cannot believe 3 national channels on ROC, who can one believe?

It is good to know that we can count on US and Japan when the time comes