Being Deported! And there's no good reason why!?!

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
41

I’m not sure actually, I inferred it from a post I saw, so I could be wrong. But I don’t see the difference between not having it on you because you left it behind at home, and not having it on you because it hasn’t arrived in the mail.

In both cases you’ve demonstrated that you wish to work legally, and you have taken the legal steps required to do so. This fooling around and deporting people on the basis of hair thin appeals to the letter of the law does not look like the behaviour of people who are concerned with illegal workers. It looks like the behaviour of people with a deportation quota.

42

Just speculating… but deporting foreign nationals is an exercise of sovereignty.

Taiwan also has a process legislated referred to as Judicial Assistance. Under the law of Judicial Assistance, if a trial is taking place in a foreign court, and the defendant in htat trial is a Taiwanese individual living in Taiwan, and the foriegn plaintiff wants to serve notice of the litigation and claims/charges against the Taiwanese defendant, Taiwan requires such notice to be sent via Judicial Assistance. Under this law, in order for the notice to be valid (for the purpose of later enforcing the foreign judgment against the Taiwanese defendant in Taiwan), the foreign court must request the Taiwan court for assistance in serving the notice, and the request must go through diplomatic channels.

43

Well, you can appeal. If you win you can come back. But for most people, this means no appeal.

44

I thought there was no appeal. Would it make a difference if there was? What I can’t understand is the mentality which treats those trying to work legally the same as those who have no intention of working legally.

45

The police make the administrative decision to deport. You can appeal administrative decisions to the the administrative agency (the Ministry of the Interior in the case of the police) and then to the administrative courts.

The fine for employers for employing illegal workers is being raised to NT$750,000 (!) and the CLA warned the public about foreigners with fake marriage-based ARCs that allow them to work automatically. There is a crackdown on foreign workers going on, and it looks like English teachers are being affected too.

46

I hope they either seriously crack down on the schools so that all schools are being equally affected and the schools change their behavior, or that they legislate a change allowing people to work legally until their application is either approved or rejected.

The problem I see with forcing schools to apply for a work permit for a teacher before they ever come to the country is that they don’t have the opportunity to see if they will be a good teacher or not.

47

I just honestly do not see the reason why someone who has applied for an ARC should be deported for 5 years and never work in Taiwan again, just because they started work before the ARC was in their hand.

I can understand being harsh on people who didn’t even bother to apply for an ARC, but why on those who did?

48

So, just applying for something gives you all of the rights to act as if you have received it? Does this mean if I apply to be a doctor, I can just start doing surgeries? Or if I apply to become a member of a club, I can just walk in and start using the club facilities?
Applying for an ARC and starting work before receiving it only shows that you are willing to follow the rules if they are willing to immediately process your request. If it takes some time, to hell with the rules.

49

[quote=“JMcNeill”]So, just applying for something gives you all of the rights to act as if you have received it? Does this mean if I apply to be a doctor, I can just start doing surgeries? Or if I apply to become a member of a club, I can just walk in and start using the club facilities?
Applying for an ARC and starting work before receiving it only shows that you are willing to follow the rules if they are willing to immediately process your request. If it takes some time, to hell with the rules.[/quote]

In a nutshell, there it is.

50

So, all you folks who think the deported teachers had it coming have never broken any laws here?
JD, you might want to edit your posts about running your first school in Yingge illegally? :wink:

51

[quote=“JMcNeill”]So, just applying for something gives you all of the rights to act as if you have received it? Does this mean if I apply to be a doctor, I can just start doing surgeries? Or if I apply to become a member of a club, I can just walk in and start using the club facilities?
Applying for an ARC and starting work before receiving it only shows that you are willing to follow the rules if they are willing to immediately process your request. If it takes some time, to hell with the rules.[/quote]

This kind of a response shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the visa process for a Foreign English teacher in Taiwan. It’s the kind of a response I expect from someone who is not a teacher and likely has had no exposure to the work permit/ ARC process for an English teacher in Taiwan.

The process begins in the teacher’s home country, where they have to obtain a visitor visa to enter Taiwan, even though everyone knows the teacher is going there to work. In fact, when I came, I was told if I disclosed to the TECO personel my intention to seek work as an English teacher in Taiwan, I would be refused the class of visitor visa required for obtaining a resident visa without visa runs. Add to this the fact that the TECO personel know fine well that most non-Chinese applying for visitor visas under these circumstances are in fact teachers. What we have is a kind of game that must be played by teachers even before they enter the country. Why don’t teachers just get a resident visa outside of Taiwan? Because they can’t. Employers do not process teachers from outside of Taiwan and there is no mechanism in place to allow teachers to enter under any other guise than as a tourist.

Phase two is when your employer gives you the offer, you sign the contract, get a health check and submit all documents for the ARC application. Now, maybe there are some fine establishments that do not require the teacher to begin work until all I’s are dotted and T’s crossed re: their work permit, but these are the minority. The vast majority of schools and companies require a teacher to start work ASAP. If the teacher refuses, citing legal reasons (and oh yeah, most new teachers aren’t aware that they aren’t yet allowed to work for their employer-- they aren’t aware of the laws of this country and tend to trust their employer on these matters), s/he will likely lose the job as the employer hires the next guy who IS wlling to start right away. This is the case with almost every new hire English teacher in Taiwan. It’s a well-known defacto state of affairs for teachers here and it is a largely unavoidable one for the teacher. It is caused by a government that does not set up a mechanism for teachers to obtain the required visas and permits ahead of their departure from their home country (as in Japan and Korea) as well as employers who demand immediate commencement of work (and teachers who are often not in a position to say no).

The only realistic solution, without totally revamping the system (which wouldn’t be such a bad idea either), is to allow a grace period wherein a teacher can have a period of provisional legal work rights while the application process is underway. If refused, the teacher must cease work; if accepted, carry on. The authorities, in targetting teachers in the middle their work permit application process, are being neither fair nor decent, given that the teachers have few options within the current permit regime. The teacher in this case is trying to be legal and is working within the system, such that it is. If the authorities want to deport bad westerners, go after the ones overstaying visas expired for years at a time or those working under the guise of being a student while blowing off classes.

52

Toasty,
You hit the nail on the head. :notworthy: :notworthy:

53

:notworthy: Common sense in every bite, Toasty.

The point, as our bready friend says, is that the way the whole system functions it is almost impossible to be totally legal at every moment in the process. I had my job set up before I came to Taiwan - but it is not possible to get an ARC before you arrive in the country. So, like almost every other teacher, I lied, got a visitors visa and then went through the application process here in Taiwan.

The system needs a radical overhaul. The following ideas would be helpful, I feel:

  1. Allow application and processing of work visas and ARCs from overseas. This would include accepting medical checks from overseas hospitals.
  2. Include Toasty’s ‘grace period’ where you can work provisionally while permit applications are underway.

I’m sure that there are a few teachers out there who have managed to stay completely legal, 100% of the time. I’ve just never met one. Done a demo to get a job? Illegal. Worked while your ARC was being processed? Illegal. Entered the country on a tourist visa for the purpose of seeking employment? Illegal. Taught a private student? Illegal. Covered classes at a different branch of your school without an extra work permit? Illegal. Subbed for anyone without a work permit for that school? Illegal.

If the government set clear, sensible rules then most of us would have no problem with those who transgress them being kicked out. But the rules are not clear, they’re not sensible. Some people in this thread have said that the OP broke the laws and there is no excuse for that. Fine. But if he should be kicked out, then so should 90% of the rest of the English teachers in Taiwan. Be reasonable - the law, in this case, is an ass.

54

It is a tough one this because as Taffy says, I bet that everyone at some time has done one the so called illegal acts re teaching. The only way to be 100% sure is to marry a local and even then, I’m sure the Govt would find some way of deporting you if they wished (probably insanity :wink: )
It is all about control. They can do with you what they wish, up to a point, and there s not much we can do about it. Just get on with life, smile away, and hope that it isn’t your turn to be unlucky! :astonished: As for me, I’m offically legal but insane as I have a Tai Tai :wink:

55

Toasty and Taffy are right—the system doesn’t work from the perspective of teachers and should be overhauled.

Contrast this with the process for migrant workers where they are recruited overseas and are 100% legal at all times unless they leave their job.

Part of the reason for this is that the industrial and construction interests that need migramt workers are far more powerful and organized than the Buxiban industry. Those interests have made sure that the process works and the authorities have gone along because they agree that migrant workers are necessary and desirable because they are more highly regulated.

But independent foreign language teachers are another matter entirely. The government wants better qualified teachers (but hasn’t benn allowed to pay for them) and looks at the current situation with ambivalence at best. I’d argue that current system is broken and will not be fixed because it suits both interests of the authorities and the Buxibans. Simply put, the government doesn’t want you to be legal 100% of the time because it wants to discourage more teachers from coming and because it wants teh flexibility of being able to deport people at will.

56

Yes, that’s right! It’s all Chen’s fault! I hear he caused the Black Death, the extinction of the dinosaurs, and the development of spandex too. Each day he sits in his Presidential Palace, cackling maniacally, wondering what new horrors he can visit on the world. Word has it that he is working on something called “telemarketing.”…

LOL! Yes, growth slipped to an anemic 6.4% last quarter of 2005. What a terrible recession! Moral of the tale: Don’t buy into all the propaganda you hear.

Great post Toasty. It looks like the teacher in the OP got thoroughly screwed. But how can you be sure that it was some new policy, and not something driven by some local thing? When my wife’s school was visited by the tax people, it was because someone wanted to buy her out, and they paid an employee to submit false data to the tax office, thus forcing the price down. The police don’t usually make random visits, they come because someone has summoned them. Are we really looking at a new enforcement phenomenon, or just some local out for a little revenge?

Vorkosigan

57

[quote]Great post Toasty. It looks like the teacher in the OP got thoroughly screwed. But how can you be sure that it was some new policy, and not something driven by some local thing? When my wife’s school was visited by the tax people, it was because someone wanted to buy her out, and they paid an employee to submit false data to the tax office, thus forcing the price down. The police don’t usually make random visits, they come because someone has summoned them. Are we really looking at a new enforcement phenomenon, or just some local out for a little revenge?

Vorkosigan[/quote]

Good point. Since most enforcement here of anything most often begins with complaints–and is seldom proactive, I don’t doubt that this action was driven by something local. A couple of years ago, some teachers at the buxban company I was working at were detained for working at a branch location not listed on their ARC cards (nothing happened to the teachers in the end). However, it turned out the sudden enforcement had come from a complaint from a competitor. The company had opened a new branch in an area close to the complainant’s existing buxiban and, as a result, he started to lose business. The enforcment action was a kind of “welcome to the neighbourhood” from the competitor. I suppose, ultimately, this is another good reason for a revamp of the rules and another good reason to support those foreigners caught up in the murky mess of the regulations governing the teaching industry here.

58

Excellent points. My understanding is that the buxiban industry has become very competitive since the market is sauturated and the number of children is beginning (?) to decline. Deperate time may make for desperate tactics. While complaint-driven investigations are nothing new, the police at least in Taipei have deported quite a few people on sometimes pretty flimsy pretexts and have gotten very picky about ARC changes of address and the like.

59

Well, we also have a scattered group of people who end up working as English teachers. If every English teacher without exception dug in his or her heels and refused to work until that document was in his or her hot little hand, the buxibans would make it their business to lean on the government to get the permits back mighty quick, and no one would have to run this sort of risk.

The fact is, there are plenty of folks who are willing to work without the doc in hand, whether out of genuine hunger/lack of money, ignorance of the regulations/situation, or just perverseness/“screw this” attitude. So the buxibans have no incentive to not force people to work illegally before receiving the ARC. One foreigner is pretty much like another to them, and there’s a never-ending supply coming off the plane every day.

Having jumped through all sorts of hoops over the years to stay legal, I really don’t have much sympathy for somebody in this position, especially one who knew perfectly well that the ARC in hand is a requirement to work. I have been in at least one situation where the employer promised an ARC and failed to deliver. I simply didn’t work.I was short on cash, and at that point eating a baozi at the place around the corner was a major treat as I had to make NT$4000 last a month. I don’t know if I would have been picked up or not (this was some years ago now) but I do know that if I had been picked up, I wouldn’t have been able to spend the next several years in Taiwan doing what I wanted to do. I weighed up the risk and my goals and decided to take the prudent way out. That option is open to anyone. If you’re just in Taiwan for the quick buck, maybe to you it’s an acceptable risk, but don’t bellyache if your number comes up.

60

These aren’t directly analogous, because in this case it has already been acknowledged that you are qualified for the ARC (unlike being a doctor). And in my experience clubs which have already acknowledged you as a member permit you to start using the facilities before you get a ‘Welcome to the club’ letter in the mail.