[quote=“MJB”]
Mordeth, are you serious when you said you don’t take your bike up into the mountains anymore? [/quote]
Never really did…I usually take the 66 freeway to da-xi. Then take the number 3 down to ju-dong. From there the 68 freeway over to Nan-liao and back up the costal highway to the 66 which goes right past my house.
Blind corners are just too much for me. You have bikers and cars going around oncoming lanes on blind corners regularly. The last time I went into the mountains I was hugging the curb on the corner…and I still almost got hit by a guy on a superbike coming at me head on while passing another guy on a superbike who was already passing a car :loco: .
I can still get my knee down on the #3…only difference is that I’m doing it at 160km/hr instead of 60…and in my opinion it’s safer that way since there are roughly 3 lanes one direction and a cement divider.
I state very clearly multiple times that it was to be on a go-kart track. Take a look at the original post…or hold on I’ll quote it…
[quote][quote]Mordeth wrote:
Well, you might as well just stick with scooters then. Since a good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike on the mountain roads…where it’s not easy to do quicker than 80km/hr…and the lighter scooters have the advantage. [/quote]
Plasmatron wrote:
The only way that’d be even remotely true is if it read “a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…” even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike… unless you mean proper big capacity scooters with actual ground clearance… [/quote]
That was the begining of it. I’ve been beaten by scooters on very windy roads…which are comparable to a go-kart track. So I didn’t appreciate being called an absolute moron.
Ok, here is the original challenge in which I state clearly it will take place on a GO-KART TRACK:
[quote] Mordeth wrote:
You need to keep in mind that all of what we are saying is dependent on the road. One mountain road is not the same as another. And it would be ignorant of you to claim that no scooter could beat a competent bike rider on any mountain road. Considering that some mountain roads are as twisty as a go-kart track…you ever take your bike on a go-kart track? You think you could beat a scooter with your GS on a go-kart track? If you’re dumb enough to say yes to that…then I’ll put good money down to see it…and I’ll give you good odds, too. [/quote]
He never really accepted the challenge except to say:
Plasmatron wrote:
The only way that’d be even remotely true is if it read “a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…” even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike… unless you mean proper big capacity scooters with actual ground clearance…
I don’t think Plasmatron was refering to you when he made that comment.
[quote=“KawasakiRider”]Plasmatron wrote:
The only way that’d be even remotely true is if it read “a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…” even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike… unless you mean proper big capacity scooters with actual ground clearance…
I don’t think Plasmatron was refering to you when he made that comment.[/quote]
No…he wasn’t referring to me specifically. But he does state pretty clearly that if a big bike were to lose to a scooter even on the “tightest of the tight stuff” then the big bike rider would have to be an “absolute moron”. I’ve been unable to keep up with some scooters on some very twisty roads…so by his statement that would make me an absolute moron.
Since the “tightest of the tight” mountain roads would be comparable to a go-kart track (constant turns). I’m just asking him to prove that he himself is not an “absolute moron” which is what he would be by his own admission if he were unable to keep up with a scooter on the “tightest of tight” turns.
I have a lot of respect for Plasmatron. He’s probably the most gifted writer on this forum. And he seeems like a highly intelligent fellow. It just seems like he let his “big bike ego” write a check that he can’t cash…but just this one time.
ha ha ha… well guys I’m sorry to blow everyone’s visions of low brow hollywood style “racing for pinks” cheesyness, but I won’t be at the track on Sept 4. In fact I’ll be at the final day of the EuroBike show in Friedrichshafen Germany… Company sends me there every year, for the bike industry it’s pretty much a must go…
secondly I apologise to Mordeth for any implied suggestion that he was an absolute moron if scooters rode mountain roads quicker than him… also, if I had a “big bike ego” I’d have a ultra flash sports machine with color matched leathers and spend my time loitering outside mountain tea shops posing for inane photos and avoid actual riding of the bike as much as possible… didn’t you guys know that’s standard practice for the local “big bike hero’s”…
Mordeth I think your outrage at the preceived insult of me implying that you “a moron” has caused your logic to jump the rails a little… if you take a look at the posts / quotes etc. above you’ll see that I distinctly say:
[quote]Plasmatron wrote:
The only way that’d be even remotely true is if it read “a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…” even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike…[/quote]
your subsequent attempts to equate a mountain road with a go-kart track are a bit illogical but more to the point irrelevant… the entire crux of the debate was about being caught up by scooters on mountain twisties… surely you cannot disagree with this point… I then went to great lengths to explain how the fundamentals of moutain roads ie. uphills, surfaces etc. make it all but impossible for scooters to outrun a properly ridden big bike… I then went to even greater lengths to explain how at a dead flat track, go-kart or otherwise isn’t comprable to mountain roads for the reasons already stated above… you then conveniently ignored all this and stick to your fabricated facts that twisty means corners, therfore go-kart track = mountain road…
BUT trying to say that a 2 go-kart wide, dead pan flat, 1km long go-kart ribbon is comprable to mountain twisties because both have lots of tight corners is like saying a snowball is the same as an ice cream cone… they may share one common element, being cold, but the difference between the two remains fundamental… That said if you still think my “big bike ego” has gotten the best of me, then again, I respectfully disagree… I would welcome a time trial between any scooter you like and my GS over a 5km stretch of mountain road… In the least egotisitcal way possible I’d like to say that I am “quietly confident” that my inntial, and only premise, that a scooter would not be able to keep up on such roads, is true…
Although a ‘big bike’ is fun to drive and have, I would probably go for a 250cc+ scooter type.
Taiwan roads aren’t made for big bikes, traffic is a hell, why you think in Taiwan so many people drive automatic. Automatic in Belgium, probably Europe is an ‘option’ and will cost you more bucks.
I guess the big bikers take the same roads every weekend, what fun is that. :s
Well, if you want to try it some other time let me know. I’ll be there. They only have these race days 3 times a year. If anyone would like to see hundreds of guys all capable of smoking plasmatron on a scooter feel free to PM me.
[quote=“plasmatron”]
secondly I apologise to Mordeth for any implied suggestion that he was an absolute moron if scooters rode mountain roads quicker than him… also, if I had a “big bike ego” I’d have a ultra flash sports machine with color matched leathers and spend my time loitering outside mountain tea shops posing for inane photos and avoid actual riding of the bike as much as possible… didn’t you guys know that’s standard practice for the local “big bike hero’s”… [/quote]
There you go insulting me again…I like mountain tea shops… :fume:
[quote=“plasmatron”]
Mordeth I think your outrage at the preceived insult of me implying that you “a moron” has caused your logic to jump the rails a little… if you take a look at the posts / quotes etc. above you’ll see that I distinctly say:
[quote]Plasmatron wrote:
The only way that’d be even remotely true is if it read “a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…” even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike…[/quote] [/quote]
Don’t get so high on yourself as to think you are capable of causing outrage within me. You’d have to change lanes without signaling to do that or something as equally atrocious.
[quote=“plasmatron”]
your subsequent attempts to equate a mountain road with a go-kart track are a bit illogical but more to the point irrelevant… the entire crux of the debate was about being caught up by scooters on mountain twisties… surely you cannot disagree with this point… I then went to great lengths to explain how the fundamentals of moutain roads ie. uphills, surfaces etc. make it all but impossible for scooters to outrun a properly ridden big bike… I then went to even greater lengths to explain how at a dead flat track, go-kart or otherwise isn’t comprable to mountain roads for the reasons already stated above… you then conveniently ignored all this and stick to your fabricated facts that twisty means corners, therfore go-kart track = mountain road…
BUT trying to say that a 2 go-kart wide, dead pan flat, 1km long go-kart ribbon is comprable to mountain twisties because both have lots of tight corners is like saying a snowball is the same as an ice cream cone… they may share one common element, being cold, but the difference between the two remains fundamental… That said if you still think my “big bike ego” has gotten the best of me, then again, I respectfully disagree… I would welcome a time trial between any scooter you like and my GS over a 5km stretch of mountain road… In the least egotisitcal way possible I’d like to say that I am “quietly confident” that my inntial, and only premise, that a scooter would not be able to keep up on such roads, is true… [/quote]
You explained that in the mountains a bigger bike would have an advantage going uphill, but you conveniently forgot that the scooter would have the advantage going downhill. Since the lesser weight of the scooter would enable it to take corners at high speeds while on a downward slope…and the big bike would have to take the corners at a much slower speed than he was doing while going up the hill, due to his much heavier weight. A go-kart track negates these positives and negatives leaving only the similarly twisty road. Not exactly apples and oranges, dear.
Plus, I thought racing on a public road in the mountains might be a little too dangerous for some peoples taste. But if you want a straight up bet. I’ll arrange a scooter vs your BMW on a mountain road race just as well. None of this 5km bullshit, though. How many other things are you going to add in now to try and give yourself even more of an advantage? You’ve already stated that unless you yourself are an “absolute moron” you can’t possibly lose. How about I pick the twistiest mountain road I know of…and you race from the top…to the bottom. That helps that scooter out a bit…but you’ve already said it’s pretty much impossible for him to win…so why worry?
I guess the big bikers take the same roads every weekend, what fun is that. :s[/quote]
Depends on where you live and who you are. I find that the route I take is the best route for me. So, I ride it a lot. But I still experiment with taking other roads…and exploring different off-roads from my main route. The east coast and the south is heaven for a big bike. I just haven’t had much free time to go that far recently.
KawasakiRider, lives in Taipei and although it sucks getting out of Taipei on a big bike.Once outside he has many choices of good roads to ride on. I just hate riding into Taipei to meet him. From Taipei he can go east coast, west coast…norther roads…or mountains. Since I live on the west coast my options are more limited.
you’re right Belgian Pie… city traffic isn’t a forte for big bikes, although that said it is a very efficient way of getting from A to B through urban madness… it’s just that when you get there you can’t park your bike anywhere out of your line of sight :s … which writes off the efficient part…
but big bikes, especially adventure bikes, are fan-bloody-tastic in the roads and offroads of the 80% of Taiwan that nobody goes to / lives in… Having the GS has allowed me to see places that 90% of Taiwanese people will never see… It allows for fantastic stolen weekends away camping with new friends in obscure beautiful corners of the island… It turns every mountain crossroad into a potential adventure, every red light into a GP grid where you’re always on pole, every river bed into a playground, every bendy line on a map into sweeping, twisting real life rollercoaster and best of all, it turns every destination as cool and exotic as it may be into merely an excuse to ride there… plus you get to spend all your spare time dismantling it, trying to put it back together, fuming when you fail hopelessly, learning more about how it works and trying again, scheming new plans for upgrades and improvements, coming up with new and elaborate justifications for why it’s reasonable to spend another chunk of hard earned cash on some new add on, and lastly the simple pleasure in stolen moments just staring at it pondering how several hundred genius engineers managed to take a thousand bits of metal, plastic, rubber and carbon and fashion something so aesthetically and functionally perfect that it almost defies description…
With that soppy nonsense out of the way, I’ve been severely tempted to look at a proper Japanese 250cc super scooter… I love riding my 125cc scooter about since like Kawasakirider explained in a previous post, you can never really push a big bike to it’s limits in Taiwan or anywhere else for that matter outside a proper race track, without a genuine and justified fear that it’ll bite back in a painful and expensive way… on the scooter however, for a few minutes I’m Rossi on the brakes, tires squealing just on the edge of traction, then dump it into the corner sparks flying as everything touches down, sh*te suspension max’ed out, frame protesting in little weaves of instability as you barrel on, full throttle through the bump in the apex, up and over and flick right, maintaining maximum inertia and alarming instability as you exit the corner onto the uphill straight where… the unmodded 125cc engine fails to deliver, the madness bubble pops and you return to real life…
for vicariously living out your GP fantasies there’s nothing like a scoot… and of course they’re great for commuting etc. blah blah… but I’m very glad and I feel, rather privileged to have both options available to me…
Are you talking about this track?
I’ve been there three times this year… and each time they were having bike races. [/quote]
Hmm, yeah I think that’s it…cool map. But what you saw was probably bikes racing for practice. They only have 3 RACE days a year. And the guys you saw on bikes were probably practicing for those days.
But that’s a good point…we don’t need to wait for a race day…any weekend will have some scooter racers there doing their thing. So we have an open invitation to all GS riders then.
i didn’t conveniently forget anything…any advantage a scooter would have going around downhill corners would be minimal, whereas the big bike’s advantage going uphill is significant… Amazingly despite contradicting the finest in kindergarden logic and reasoning, a go-kart track would in fact not cancel out any pro’s and con’s leaving all things on a happy, even playing field at all… so for the last time, it is an irrelevant comparison to mountain roads… and even if it were not, go-kart tracks are not what this discussion was about from the beginning… in addition you think that after a couple of practice laps on the GS it’d all be even stevens with guys who race there every weekend of their lives and know the track like the back of their hands… come on Mordeth, you’re not that dumb, so it’s unfair to assume other people are… I mean just look at Nicky Hayden… he beat Rossi, the best rider ever to have raced a motorcycle, at Laguna Seca because of one simple factor, local track knowledge and if you want the argument underlined, so did Colin Edwards another Laguna local… Forget your silly go-kart track race against the local scooter punk antics, they are irrelevant…
Mordeth mate honestly, who died and made you Bernie Ecclestone… you want to choose all the criteria of this fictional show down, you’ve been randomly selecting vehicles, locations, roads and variables as you see fit for the sake of improving your chances of being correct and yet you have the audacity to accuse me of trying to tinker with the variables when i say “big bike vs. scooter over 5km of mountain road…” isn’t that exactly what this discussion was about… i mean honestly just read the bold / underlined parts of what you wrote above… not likely mate… you can see through the gaping holes in your amatuerish game fixing efforts just as well as everyone else can…
the proposition is “can a scooter beat a big bike on mountain roads”… not “can Mordeth find a stretch of a few hundred meters of twisty downhill farmer’s track or better yet a go-kart track, somewhere in Taiwan where a pulsating hybrid freak of a scooter ridden by some bin-lang and whisby drenched kamikazi lunatic would have an advantage over a big bike”…
Well, I’m not the one making brash statements along the lines of.
IT’S PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCOOTER TO BEAT A BIG BIKE ON A MOUNTAIN ROAD…UNLESS!!! THE BIG BIKE RIDER IS MENTALLY HANDICAPPED AND RIDING THE BIKE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE…WITH PEPPER SPRAY IN HIS EYES!!!
That’s a slight exaggeration of what you said…but you still said that the ONLY way it would be possible for a scooter to win in the mountains was if the big bike was ridden by an absolute moron (I’m getting bored of that quote)…so you’re the one with something to prove not me, I’m guessing your not an absolute moron so by your own admission…you can’t lose to a scooter. I never said a scooter could beat you anytime anywhere…you’re the one who makes brash generalizations, such as you could beat any scooter on any mountain road.
So…BACK IT UP. That’s all I’m saying. You pretty much state in one of your more long winded posts (aren’t they all?) that a scooter CAN’T beat a big bike in the mountains…so…I’ll pick the mountain…and you prove it. Otherwise don’t make such obtuse generalizations.
Maybe instead of saying: a bloody good rider on a scooter can keep up with a big bike being ridden by an absolute moron on the mountain roads…" even on the tightest of the tight stuff I’ve never seen a scooter rider who can even come close to even an average rider on an average big bike…
You should have said: A big bike can kill a scooter in the mountains as long as it’s uphill and the bike rider knows the mountain better than the scooter. And the comparison length of road is longer than 5km. And the big bike…etc.
You say in the original quote " even on the tightest of the tight stuff " you’ve never seen a scooter come close to a big bike. Well, last time I checked A GO-KART TRACK IS THE TIGHTEST OF TIGHT STUFF…so that’s why go-kart tracks got into this…because you already claimed you could take a scooter on the “tightest of tights”. But now you are saying “Umm, no…that’s too tight…”. You should ask one of the many English teachers on here to explain “-est” to you. Alright if that’s too tight…then let me pick a tight section of Mountain road…you already said that even on the tightest road the scooter wouldn’t stand a chance.
Mordeth… mate… come on, your clamoring attempts at logical arguments have now gone way too far into the realm of fiction… If you’re going to randomly ad lib, exaggerate and straight out falsify statements I’ve made, then tack on a few wild but false associations and extrapolations where you chose what I meant to say claiming without any validation, that
Wow…for a such an intelligent guy (or one that likes to use big words a lot ), you really don’t have a clue…do you?
My ego is fine. I even sent you a PM saying that I wasn’t actually offended by the comment and I hoped you weren’t getting offended by any of this. I am a little offended by your last post though…and it was fairly insulting, no matter how eloquently you wrote it.
What started this…was not me feeling hurt by your comment. What started this was you making an unbelievably ignorant generalization that was completely untrue. Namely that a scooter could not beat a big bike…regardless of the road. I’m paraphrasing here…but I could dig up the over used quotes if you like.
I then said if you think that absurd statement to be true then why don’t you prove it. You have since then insulted me…and tried to worm your way out of the challenge…maybe it’s you who can’t take the heat in the kitchen.
Dam this is getting messy. I’ve lost track of what we really are debating here. Can we at least agree to the following:
Scooters are quicker and a bit more nimble on some types of roads/courses, and big bikes are quicker and a bit more flickable on other types of roads/courses.
IMO,
scooter vs. big bike + go-kart track = scooter a little ahead (with competent riders and with both familiar with the course)
scooter vs. big bike + normal twistie roads = big bike ahead (with competent riders and with both familiar with that stretch of road)
If you DO decide to have it out, say, from Daxi to Shang Balin, let me know. I’ll go up in the car early and share a dish of noodles and a couple of beers with Plasmatron while we wait for the scooters to arrive. Its a nice place to sit and have a few brews.
[/quote]
ha ha ha… well guys I’m sorry to blow everyone’s visions of low brow hollywood style “racing for pinks” cheesyness, but I won’t be at the track on Sept 4. In fact I’ll be at the final day of the 
[/quote]
[/quote]
Mordeth mate honestly, who died and made you Bernie Ecclestone… you want to choose 
