[quote=“headhonchoII”]A good example of this is Jeremy Lin, who is Taiwanese because his parents were Taiwanese/Chinese, but who has never even lived in Taiwan. Meanwhile us non Chinese hued folks will never be Taiwanese no matter how long we live here. That’s racialism isn’t it?
[/quote]
You can call it that, I guess, but you probably mean the legal principle known as jus sanguinis (law of blood) which means that nationality of a person is determined by that person’s parents’ (or grandparents’, etc) nationality. That’s nothing special about Taiwan though. Many countries in the world follow this same principle to a greater or lesser degree, including many European countires such as Germany, Italy, and even Ireland (yes, who would’ve thought).
It’s also not true that non-Chinese or non-Taiwanese people “will never be Taiwanese”. Many white foreigners (inlcuding several members on this forum) have acquired Taiwanese citizenship already. I’m sure you can do too if you really wanted it.
Well, I can’t speak for them, but I have noticed that Ma Ying-jeou loves the Zhonghua Minzu/Children of the Yellow Emperor schlock, completely leaving out all of the, say, Vietnamese women who have married into Taiwanese citizenship.
Unless blood relation to the Yellow Emperor can be attained along with a shenfenzheng?
Now, I don’t know how your average Wang, Lin, and Chen view a foreigner who marries into Taiwan, speaks fluent Chinese, and has citizenship. But the immigration agency of all agencies is still writing racist, offensive, and downright ignorant pamphlets talking about how the children of “new immigrants” – boys and girls born in Taiwan to two Taiwanese parents, one of whom happened to come from abroad – can have a big advantage in business “when they go home” because they speak Chinese.
If that’s not racist, jingoistic, and xenophobic, I don’t know what is.
Well, I can’t speak for them, but I have noticed that Ma Ying-jeou loves the Zhonghua Minzu/Children of the Yellow Emperor schlock, completely leaving out all of the, say, Vietnamese women who have married into Taiwanese citizenship.
Unless blood relation to the Yellow Emperor can be attained along with a shenfenzheng?
Now, I don’t know how your average Wang, Lin, and Chen view a foreigner who marries into Taiwan, speaks fluent Chinese, and has citizenship. But the immigration agency of all agencies is still writing racist, offensive, and downright ignorant pamphlets talking about how the children of “new immigrants” – boys and girls born in Taiwan to two Taiwanese parents, one of whom happened to come from abroad – can have a big advantage in business “when they go home” because they speak Chinese.
If that’s not racist, jingoistic, and xenophobic, I don’t know what is.[/quote]
Not sure what you’re talking about. Can you make a full quote or show a link for a source?
[quote=“GC Rider”][quote=“headhonchoII”]A good example of this is Jeremy Lin, who is Taiwanese because his parents were Taiwanese/Chinese, but who has never even lived in Taiwan. Meanwhile us non Chinese hued folks will never be Taiwanese no matter how long we live here. That’s racialism isn’t it?
[/quote]
You can call it that, I guess, but you probably mean the legal principle known as jus sanguinis (law of blood) which means that nationality of a person is determined by that person’s parents’ (or grandparents’, etc) nationality. That’s nothing special about Taiwan though. Many countries in the world follow this same principle to a greater or lesser degree, including many European countires such as Germany, Italy, and even Ireland (yes, who would’ve thought).
It’s also not true that non-Chinese or non-Taiwanese people “will never be Taiwanese”. Many white foreigners (inlcuding several members on this forum) have acquired Taiwanese citizenship already. I’m sure you can do too if you really wanted it.[/quote]
I’m not saying that Jeremy Lin couldn’t claim to be Taiwanese (or Chinese). What I’m saying is the general perception of him is that he is ‘Taiwanese’ just because of his color and heritage, but he doesn’t even have an ARC here and I doubt he has a passport (or he didn’t have before anyway).
Yes you can be ‘Taiwanese’ after jumping through a lot of ridiculous hoops for no good reason, but the average Li or Chen will still be calling you Laowai till the day you die no matter what it says on your passport. Heck they even call my kids ‘hunxie’ or foreigners sometimes, often asking my wife ‘ta men hun na li’, instant judgements based on looks and blood heritage…I’ve no illusions about the society here…the questions are indicate the thinking at large…money, power, heritage, connections.
Since you brought Ireland to try to make a comparison to Taiwan’s situation I will show you this. Yeah you’ll get people with different views but in the end they’ll mostly be accepted as Irish citizens without the awkwardness you get here about foreign this and that.
Ma likes to start his New Years/Double 10 Day addresses with comments about the Chinese Nation (i.e., ethnic group, not state) and talking about how ROC citizens are all “Children of the Yellow Emperor,” implying some sort of fantastical ethnic homogeneity among Taiwan’s fairly diverse population.
It’s rhetoric from another century, when the nation-state was a thing, when ethnicity was enough for governors to earn legitimacy among their constituents.
Paragraph 5: “The people of both sides of the Taiwan Strait are members of the Chinese Nation; cross-strait relations are not international relations.”
Final paragraph: “Our concern for human rights on the mainland is not just because of universal values. More important is that the people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait are members of the Chinese Nation, descendants of the emperors Huang and Yan. Cross-strait human rights issues are the common interest of the people on both sides.”
[quote=“NonTocareLeTete”]
Anyways, I’m not sure if this talk changes their behavior or not, but I think it helps to make people aware in a way that’s not completely asshole-ish (shout out to the asshole in the other thread who told off the old lady!).
I mean seriously, like telling someone off is going to make an appreciable, positive difference in the world…no. It’ll just confuse people and make everything worse.
Disapproval does nothing to alter reality, because reality doesn’t give a shit about your disapproval. Disapproval of reality only serves to make you unhappy.[/quote]
Not necessarily, sometimes people need to be told off, if only for the sake of the teller. Having to be “nice” in order to point out an injustice done to you only adds insult to injury. That effectively says, “Not only do we treat you like shit, but if we don’t like the way you inform us of your mistreatment your complaint is invalid and our treatment of you justified.”
That said, I rarely is it necessary to tell Taiwanese people off generally because their intent isn’t usually malicious. Also, it’s better and more entertaining for Taiwanese to tell each other off than for foreigners to do it imho. Things are different in the “West” where a combative response to ignorance is sometimes necessary. It’s not going to change the mind of the other person, but it will let them know you are not to be trifled with. As with everything, context is important and it informs what our responses should be.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]It’s not the word itself – it’s how it’s used.
I am, legally, a foreigner. When this comes up in a legal or procedural context, i.e., 主管，有外國朋友要開帳戶，他沒有身分證，怎麼辦, it’s perfectly legitimate.
When it’s used as an identifier – 那杯星冰樂是外國人點的 – then it makes me extremely uncomfortable.
It’s the same principle that makes it uncomfortable when you hear something in English like: “An Asian walked into the convenience store.” “The black man driving the SUV” “The female doctor operated on the patient.” When it isn’t necessary for the sake of understanding the story, putting in words like “foreign” or any sort of ethnicity just underscores a mindset of us vs. them.[/quote]
Agreed. Pointing out a person’s ethnicity or foreignness when it is not necessary is biased and somewhat xenophobic. I know it bugs me to see it when it happens in the US (more rarely now, but not uncommon 20+ yeas ago). I can’t imagine how freaking annoying it is to Westerners and other immigrants in Taiwan where the modern incidence is much higher.
I’m an American of Taiwanese ancestry (ethnic Chinese and with a Chinese surname). Not once has anyone in Taiwan (or China) ever referred to me as laowai, waiguoren, or adogah. Even here in the US, I’ve spoken with Chinese immigrants who freely use waiguoren to refer to non-ethnic Chinese (where the implications was that I was not included as waiguoren). And it is vey clear to any native speaker that I have an almost comical ABC accent when I speak Mandarin and Taiwanese.
Words have meanings beyond their literal definitions. “Oriental” and “Negro” can be simply defined as “Eastern” and “Black” but most Americans don’t use such terms any more; they belong to the pre 1965/ Civil Rights Era and smack of segregation, exclusion, mob violence and lynching. This may not be a perfectly analogous situation to the use of laowai or waiguoren in Taiwan, so I’m curious as to the views of Westerners and other immigrants in Taiwan.
I was actually thinking of the word Oriental, which is a really strange word to become “racist” considering Chinese people use the term dongfang left and right. But I forgot to include it in the above post.
What’s funny is when Taiwanese people translate the word 東方 as “Oriental,” and I correct it. It’s so difficult to explain: You can’t use that word because it’s considered offensive. “Offensive to whom?” Offensive to Asians. “But I’m Asian from Asia, and I don’t find it offensive.” Well, Asian-Americans do… etc.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]I was actually thinking of the word Oriental, which is a really strange word to become “racist” considering Chinese people use the term dongfang left and right. But I forgot to include it in the above post.
What’s funny is when Taiwanese people translate the word 東方 as “Oriental,” and I correct it. It’s so difficult to explain: You can’t use that word because it’s considered offensive. “Offensive to whom?” Offensive to Asians. “But I’m Asian from Asia, and I don’t find it offensive.” Well, Asian-Americans do… etc.[/quote]
Ethnic sensitivity is a very Western concept. I think it’s intended to avoid needless conflict in a mutli-ethnic society. Like all things that involve catering to irrational demands, it tends to backfire badfly.
No it’s the right thing to do instead of singling out Jews etc. Look at Syria to completely destroy your point about ethnic sensitivity and the west. Once Syrians were people who agreed to look past ethnicity, now they are not.
When was this the case? Hasn’t Syria been under a brutal pan-Arabist regime for an awfully long time? Even radical Islamists are less ethnocentric in their way than that.
Concerning ethnic sensitivity, I’m fine with substance without style, but not style without substance. I don’t mind when someone uses the wrong word for me when there’s no ill intent, but I do mind when people use the right word and hide malevolence behind it.
It annoys me that often the focus is on the syntax instead of the semantics. It seems like it misses the point.
[quote=“skoster”]Concerning ethnic sensitivity, I’m fine with substance without style, but not style without substance. I don’t mind when someone uses the wrong word for me when there’s no ill intent, but I do mind when people use the right word and hide malevolence behind it.
It annoys me that often the focus is on the syntax instead of the semantics. It seems like it misses the point.[/quote]
This seems eminently reasonable in theory. In practise, it can lead to mind reading fallacies.
The way I see it, if somebody hates me, that’s just his problem, until he actually tries to do something about it. Then it’s my problem, and I need to make that his problem.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I mind when people use the politically correct words but hide malevolent behavior behind them. Thoughts, I could care less about.
So it’s not about mind reading, it’s about being impacted by a behavior.
[quote=“skoster”]Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I mind when people use the politically correct words but hide malevolent behavior behind them. Thoughts, I could care less about.
So it’s not about mind reading, it’s about being impacted by a behavior.[/quote]
Agreed, while I don’t particularly like being referred to as Oriental, I don’t take umbrage if someone is otherwise treating me with normal human courtesy, respect and civility. If someone is being an @$$ or bigot, it really doesn’t matter if they are otherwise referring to me as an Asian American.
But there are limits, too. No amount of civility or respect is going to make me think that “chink” or “gook” are okay.
I’ve never been on the receiving end of “laowai” or “waiguoren”, and I won’t presume to tell people whether they should or shouldn’t feel offended by it. It would bug me, though, I think.
How on earth is referring to a foreigner as a laowai or waiguoren racist? Sure, the overuse of those words reflects a narrow-minded in-group out-group way of thinking, but it is hardly malicious or racist.
[quote=“Chris”][quote=“Deuce Dropper”]1 - Use of the words ‘waiguoren’, ‘laowai’ and ‘adogah’ immediately upon any dealings locals have with foreigners. Almost always, it is the first word out of their mouth. Also, lets pretend these words are of the same degree of insult for the sake of simplification (obviously ‘adogah’ is the worse but lets not open that can of worms).
perception: exclusionary, racist, uncouth, bigoted, and just plain rude.
intent: special case, not run of the mill, caution bumpy road ahead.[/quote]
Laowai is not an insulting word at all; in fact, it can be somewhat affectionate. I can’t think of any situation in which anyone should feel offended by the use of this benign word.
Waiguoren is simply the word for “foreigner”. A more formal term would be “waijirenshi” (外籍人士). Waiguoren is a neutral term.
Adogah is more like “gringo” or “farang”. It can be used as an insult when the context is right; it can also be used in a jocular manner.[/quote]
Yes, and so is Chinaman, when used in an endearing context.
If you’re in a situation where they could refer to you by any other name (client, gentleman, student, driver, businessman, teacher…) and they use waiguoren instead, that’s offensive and racist. It might or not be intentional, but it is what it is, and there’s no use negating it.
If I go to any place and they ask my wife if that waiguoren is her husband, it’s offensive for me. Since they also have the unpolite habit of pointing, a simple is that xiansheng your husband?
It’s also offensive when someone calls my daughter, born in Taipei, waiguoren. She’s born here.
And it’s also very, very rude and racist when they are abroad and call the locals “waiguoren”. I was travelling Europe with a couple of taiwanese and they kept using that word. Every single time I told them: no, here you are the foreigners. You can call them italian, french or spanish, but you can’t call them foreigners because they’re in their own country. They just ignored that and kept using the word.
I would take that as a good opportunity for public education. Not the whole public, obviously. But it’s a good opportunity to change the mindsets of a few “frog in the wells”. urbandictionary.com/define.p … 20a%20well
Taiwanese who have lived abroad for long enough never show such ignorance. They are more like the ‘frog in the field’.
The frogs from the field understand us. They get it.