Bigotry in Taiwan. Perception and Reality

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
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[quote=“puljaljuyan”]Oriental became a bad word with the publication of Said’s ‘Orientalism’ book. Though now scholars have been revisiting the word…

In Europe, its still OK. Plenty of academics refer to themselves as ‘orientalists’ without hesitation (except when they come to the US…). Source: had a scholar approach me at the end of a panel I presented on at a conference in San Diego. He was from the UK. He introduced himself saying “I am an Orientalist…I know thats a bad word here, but not in the UK.”

And don’t forget the EFEO (École française d’Extrême-Orient) which is pretty active in Taiwan actually.

(waits for post to disappear)[/quote]

My sense is that in the US, Orient is still generally acceptable for describing places (the Orient) and objects (rugs), but not for people.

Its’ a free country, but that academic sounds like an yutz.

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I know that laowai and waiguoren literally mean “foreigner”, but am wondering if such terms practically mean “non ethnically Chinese” or “non East Asian” person.

In my experience, Taiwanese (and Chinese) tend not to refer to following persons as waiguoren/laowai: peoplefrom PRC, HK, Macao, and Singapore; other Overseas Chinese; Japanese, Koreans, Mongolians and other North/East Asian peoples. Such people get referred to by their place of origin, or as huaren or huaqiao if applicable.

Westerners of any ethnic background, except Chinese, get referred to as waiguoren/laowai. With SE Asians, Africans and others, I’m uncertain.

Would appreciate people’s comments/thoughts if my perceptions on this are wrong.

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Yes my understanding is that the term “waiguoren” has become synonymous with
“white person”. Taiwanese even refer to white people when in America, for example, as “waiguoren”.

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Well, it beats being called ‘Meiguoren’ . I live in Taidong, so I get the “that waiguoren over there” all the time- it never really bothered me.

I don’t like ‘laowai’, but that comes from first experiencing it the PRC 30 years ago; it always felt like it had an undercurrent of resentment to it.

And, yea, Mr. Ma is a racist asshole- my kids were born here; they’re citizens; on their mother’s side they’ve been here for thousands of years, and some guy who got here on a refugee boat is excluding them from his definition of the nation?

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Why’s that? Just curious.
I actually got called that the other day. Haven’t heard it, actually, for a long time. Doesn’t really bother me. But then of course, I’m one of those light-weight Americans.

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[quote=“tommy525”]Yes my understanding is that the term “waiguoren” has become synonymous with
“white person”. Taiwanese even refer to white people when in America, for example, as “waiguoren”.[/quote]

Thanks for confirming my sense. Yeah, I have Mandarin speaking friends here in the US who immigrated from China and Taiwan and it always strike me as odd when they refer to white and black people here as waiguoren. Magnanimously, I infer that they are referring to someone who is not part of the Chinese ethnic, cultural and linguistic “nation” rather than making a reference to differing citizenship (where all 3 of us, the immigrant, the referenced waiguoren, and me the ABC are Americans).

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[quote=“Zhengzhou2010”][quote=“puljaljuyan”]Oriental became a bad word with the publication of Said’s ‘Orientalism’ book. Though now scholars have been revisiting the word…

In Europe, its still OK. Plenty of academics refer to themselves as ‘orientalists’ without hesitation (except when they come to the US…). Source: had a scholar approach me at the end of a panel I presented on at a conference in San Diego. He was from the UK. He introduced himself saying “I am an Orientalist…I know thats a bad word here, but not in the UK.”

And don’t forget the EFEO (École française d’Extrême-Orient) which is pretty active in Taiwan actually.

(waits for post to disappear)[/quote]

My sense is that in the US, Orient is still generally acceptable for describing places (the Orient) and objects (rugs), but not for people.

Its’ a free country, but that academic sounds like an yutz.[/quote]

Naw, hes not a Yutz. Maybe you don’t know just how uber-crazy-super PC the academic world is in the US. You can’t even say African American anymore, you have to say “people of color”…which also includes Asians such as Chinese and Japanese (I am sure they love being put in the same skin-color category as people from Zimbabwe).

God bless the US and all that.

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[quote=“puljaljuyan”][quote=“Zhengzhou2010”][quote=“puljaljuyan”]Oriental became a bad word with the publication of Said’s ‘Orientalism’ book. Though now scholars have been revisiting the word…

In Europe, its still OK. Plenty of academics refer to themselves as ‘orientalists’ without hesitation (except when they come to the US…). Source: had a scholar approach me at the end of a panel I presented on at a conference in San Diego. He was from the UK. He introduced himself saying “I am an Orientalist…I know thats a bad word here, but not in the UK.”

And don’t forget the EFEO (École française d’Extrême-Orient) which is pretty active in Taiwan actually.

(waits for post to disappear)[/quote]

My sense is that in the US, Orient is still generally acceptable for describing places (the Orient) and objects (rugs), but not for people.

Its’ a free country, but that academic sounds like an yutz.[/quote]

Naw, hes not a Yutz. Maybe you don’t know just how uber-crazy-super PC the academic world is in the US. You can’t even say African American anymore, you have to say “people of color”…which also includes Asians such as Chinese and Japanese (I am sure they love being put in the same skin-color category as people from Zimbabwe).

God bless the US and all that.[/quote]

I’m not in academia, but am somewhat surprised to hear that “African American” is verboten. Some pretty elite and/or liberal or local institutes seem to have no problem with it.

aaas.fas.harvard.edu
africam.berkeley.edu
af-amstudies.ucsd.edu

I think it is all a question of exactly what one means by “people of color” or “African American” as while the terms overlap I have a hard time seeing as to how anyone can see them as consistently interchangeable. Personally speaking, I don’t have any problem referring to myself (an Asian American) as a “person of color” as it seems a much more pleasant term than “minority” (and in California and other states, “people of color” (broadly defined) are the majority.). But “people of color” is definitely a North American and mode term. I’d imagine that most Africans, Asians and others (not AfAms and AsiAms) would be perplexed/amused at such a grouping.

My comment about the academic was simply that I find it surprising that someone would go out of their way to intentionally use language that would instantly raise skepticism from or offend part of his audience or hosts. Again, actions count more than words but specifically choosing to use certain words when one knows they cause offense to many (as opposed to doing so out of ignorance) is also an action. Academia should be free, and I would be against calling out the “thought police”, but just for the sake of clarity, I mean what is “Orientalist” anyway (I think my niece used to play a level 70 gnome Orientalist on Warcraft, maybe it was a Sorcerer) A scholar of history? Language ? Religion? Sociology? And what Orient? Being a scholar of Middle Eastern religion, or Indian history or the Malay languages seems so much more precise. Anyway, sorry to go so OT.

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What is Asian anyway? What if somebody says ‘We are Asian but not like those Asians’?

The academic is using the traditional term for Asian studies which had been used in a non racist manner for hundreds of years. It also has more exoticism to the meaning.

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His actual department was the department of oriental studies. Thats why he used the term, despite what sort of reaction I may have. It would be a specialist in Asian Studies. The exact subfield, I do not know. I believe his was religion.

I agree, its usually white people saying “people of color”.

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[quote=“headhonchoII”]What is Asian anyway? What if somebody says ‘We are Asian but not like those Asians’?

The academic is using the traditional term for Asian studies which had been used in a non racist manner for hundreds of years. It also has more exoticism to the meaning.[/quote]

Lol, I’d imagine there are lots Taiwanese who utter those exact terms about being Asian but not like those other Asians!
“Asia” has the same broad ambiguity problem as Orient, although less of the exotic connotations (which I’d imagine is a plus for academia). An “Asianist” sounds almost as silly as an “Orientalist”, though and I would still say that the ideal and most descriptive terms should be something like “Professor of Chinese History.” I’ve never heard anyone described as a “Europeanist” (“Actually, I prefer the harpsichord . . .”). Maybe 台大 has a 外國人學 department or an institute of 老外研究?

Separately, I tried to get out of my company’s new employee “orientation” on the grounds that it was vague, exoticizing, and reinforced a limited worldview. Also the name was offensive. HR wasn’t amused. Even less so when I filed a complaint with the EEO officer. :wink:

72

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[quote=“headhonchoII”]What is Asian anyway? What if somebody says ‘We are Asian but not like those Asians’?

The academic is using the traditional term for Asian studies which had been used in a non racist manner for hundreds of years. It also has more exoticism to the meaning.[/quote]

I think in North American terms Asian is East Asian, but in the UK it is South Asian. We need to chop up this continent into four parts.

74

In England the word Asian refers to people from India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. Chinese people are spoken about as Chinese people. Same for the Japanese, though many will use the term The Japs. Taiwan is that place where trainers/sneakers come from and the capital of Taiwan is Bangkok.

75

Taiwanese are essentially 90% Han Chinese. China to is essentially like 95% Han Chinese. There a are around 2 billion or so descendants of Han Chinese. When one only sees Han Chinese, and historical empires lasted for 1000’s of years, one starts to think their world is the center of the universe. It has really only been the last 500 years where the west started running the Globe and left Asia running to catch up. This is the basis of the mentality for Taiwanese. Taiwanese see the world in paradigms. Rich/Poor, Ugly/Pretty, Smart/Dumb. Chinese/Barbarian. A good deal of this is due to Confuscious teaching placing people in classes, which thus created the bs concept called ‘face’. An argument can be made that Taiwanese are not so much racist (at least not outwardly so), but moreover ignorant because of their paradigmatic thinking.

76

Wow, this thread got pretty far off-topic!

I don’t mind bigotry in Taiwan. People can have as many husbands/wives as they want. One’s more than enough for me, though!

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Nope, white-skinned, stoopid.[/quote]
lol i’m asian-american, and they just automatically assume i’m taiwanese and deny my nationality

78

Great thread by the OP!!! Very thorough and realistic.

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Why’s that? Just curious.
I actually got called that the other day. Haven’t heard it, actually, for a long time. Doesn’t really bother me. But then of course, I’m one of those light-weight Americans.[/quote]

I’m one of those Canadians who can’t tell the difference between a newly-met fellow Canuck and a Yank half the time myself, but expect others to know the difference.

It does seem to be dying,out though, doesn’t it? When I first arrived 25 years age it was pretty well universal.

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[quote=“Zhengzhou2010”][quote=“headhonchoII”]What is Asian anyway? What if somebody says ‘We are Asian but not like those Asians’?

The academic is using the traditional term for Asian studies which had been used in a non racist manner for hundreds of years. It also has more exoticism to the meaning.[/quote]

Lol, I’d imagine there are lots Taiwanese who utter those exact terms about being Asian but not like those other Asians!
“Asia” has the same broad ambiguity problem as Orient, although less of the exotic connotations (which I’d imagine is a plus for academia). An “Asianist” sounds almost as silly as an “Orientalist”, though and I would still say that the ideal and most descriptive terms should be something like “Professor of Chinese History.” I’ve never heard anyone described as a “Europeanist” (“Actually, I prefer the harpsichord . . .”). Maybe 台大 has a 外國人學 department or an institute of 老外研究?
[/quote]

Well, you could have professors of European history; someone looking at the big picture. I think there are still “Institutes of European Studies” and such-like. In the Good Old Days it referred to “all those bits on the other side of the Channel”.

I think terms like “Orientalist” came from the time when Asia was seen as just sort of a big lump over there, and hadn’t been differentiated into fields like history, religion etc. yet. AFAIK many universities in North America still have degrees in ‘Asian Studies’

Bertrand Russell’s comment on Hegel: “The only thing he knew about China was it existed, so he assigned it to the realm of pure Being.”