This is one of the reasons why, as an American, I don’t feel too proud.
(1) American white guy speaks basic Chinese and everyone is so impressed. Locals are like-- wow, you really tried to learn our culture –
(2)Chinese guy in America (or another English speaking countries) speaking basic English – Locals are like- Ummm what? Why don’t you people learn English when you get here! (impatiently)
Americans tend to expect everyone in their country to speak the language. Its very interesting… How many Americans can speak two languages well enough to communicate? hehe, not that many.
Its just funny how foreigners here and the ones I’ve met during my stay in South Korea group in foreign ‘bubbles’ where everyone is constantly speaking English. I even heard of one woman who was teaching in S.Korea for 16 yrs and couldn’t even read Hangul!
Yeah, I always thought it would be better if Taiwanese had the same expectations of foreigners as they did of everyone else instead of patronizing as they would an idiot. Don’t cower behind that counter when a foreigner walks in the store, go out and say “May I help you!” in Chinese like you would with anyone else.
Agree with you. Americans place a great deal of emphasis on appearance, and that extends to your spoken communication. Not a very redeeming aspect of American culture.
I appreciate it when Taiwanese people give me the chance to speak Mandarin, rather than assuming that I can’t communicate in any language other than English.
I don’t discriminate against foreigners who don’t speak Mandarin, but I tend to bond more closely with those who take an interest in local language and culture. Life is much more interesting here if you know what is going on around you.
For every Taiwanese who effusively expresses admiration at my being able to communicate in Chinese, there’s at least one other who takes it for granted, assumes that a few months of living here should be enough to acquire a high level of fluency as if by osmosis, and jabbers away as if they expect me to have mastered the language as well as any native speaker. Something in between those two contrasting attitudes would suit me rather better than either.
I personally would not be against imposing some kind of language test for those wishing to acquire permanent residence rights in either country (obviously, English for the US, Chinese for Taiwan). Maybe people over 65 could be exempt or something like that, but PR for me means the willingness to meld into the society. It doesn’t mean you have to give up your own culture, but I think it should mean that you make the effort to be able to operate effectively in your new culture.
Heck, I think they should give us PR based on having good Chinese!
[quote=“ironlady”]I personally would not be against imposing some kind of language test for those wishing to acquire permanent residence rights in either country (obviously, English for the US, Chinese for Taiwan). Maybe people over 65 could be exempt or something like that, but PR for me means the willingness to meld into the society. It doesn’t mean you have to give up your own culture, but I think it should mean that you make the effort to be able to operate effectively in your new culture.
Heck, I think they should give us PR based on having good Chinese! [/quote]
Unlike most countries in the world, the USA does not have a National Language. It is only assumed to be English, … and Spanish, …
Language Testing for residency in USA would therefore be unjust.
You know, around the times of the Articles of Confederation (and if you didn’t recognize what I’m talking about immediately, you don’t have the right to call your phony immigrant ass America ), about half the country spoke some variant of Dutch or German - not English. Something to think about.
i dunno…my nieces/nephews in american kindergarden are having spanish classes. such should surely be outlawed. (how to insert “wry grin” smiley?)
the latest figure i recall is that 1/3 of americans speak a language other than english at home.
america is in the midst of a huge demographic shift. if continentals don’t like us now, wait until we further commingle with the folks down south.
i have never taken the compliments given out regarding my chinese skills. it is just conversational pitter and pandering. they don’t mean it.
live outside a major area and see the attitude shift. in rural hualien the old guys would refuse to speak mandarin and would tell me to study japanese. in taoyuan they nag me to learn hakka. if they know you speak a little chinese, more often than not, they’ll switch languages so as to exclude you from the conversation.
Actually, Hong Kong is moving in this direction. In HK, you must be a legal resident for seven years before applying for permanent residency. Up until this year, anyone who had continuously and legally lived in HK for seven years would automatically get permanent residency after a simple application. Only in special cases were applications rejected and the applicant forced to continue his/her residency under a dependent or employment visa (it is just about impossible for the HK government to revoke permanent residency status once it is granted). Most people just took it for granted that they would get PR status because of time in the territory.
This past summer, the immigration department adjusted the criteria for examining PR applications. Rather than just giving it to anybody who applies, they now ask a few questions to determine how settled the person is. The questions include:
1.) Do you own property in HK?
2.) Are you married to a HK permanent resident who has Chinese nationality?
3.) Are you in a long-term relationship with a HK permanent resident who has Chinese nationality?
4.) Do you speak CANTONESE?
The Immigration Department said that answering no to any or all of these questions won’t necessarily lead to a rejection at this point. They just want to know more about the people applying for PR status. They have set these questions based on an administrative order, not because of any legislation that has been passed. If they start to reject applications based on the answers to these questions and a civil servant’s subjective judgement, the issue will end up in court. I don’t have a problem with the first three questions as long as answering yes to just one of the three is sufficient. I think the Cantonese question is absolute bullshit. HK has three equally official languages: English, Cantonese and Putonghua. I speak two of the three, which is better than the majority of the population who only speak Cantonese. I do agree with the idea that foreigners should prove some level of Chinese proficiency before being granted permanent residency, and I think HK will eventually sort this out so that either Cantonese or Putonghua are acceptable. Taiwan? I wouldn’t trust any government, blue or green, to decide which language to accept for a language proficiency requirement.
[quote=“Chris Robinson”]
Unlike most countries in the world, the USA does not have a National Language. It is only assumed to be English, … and Spanish, …
Language Testing for residency in USA would therefore be unjust.[/quote]
Duh…I am not saying we have any official language. But simply for matters of expediency, requiring proficiency in the MAJOR language spoken in the US (which is still English) makes sense.
There is no way you can compare a country where 99 percent of the people are ethnic Chinese to the US where it is a melting pot of peoples and languages. The United States is the only country where you can become an American. You can’t call yourself an Italian, for instance, after having lived there for 20 years, no matter what your paperwork is.
Twenty years in the States and you can call yourself an American, no matter where you were from. “Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free…” The US has always been a destination for immigrants. In Taiwan, you can’t even get the equivalent of a green card without absurd and sometimes impossible requirements.
Yes, when I am in Southern California and go into a neighborhood convenience store and the clerk cannot speak anything but Spanish, it pisses me off.
There is no comparison here. Taiwan is a homogenous society. Outsiders (that’s foreigner to you and me) are anomalies not part of everyday life.
The common currency of English in American helps to keep the fabric of society together. That potential problem does not exist here where everyone speaks the same language (for all intent and purposes).
In America there is no possible way to identify foreigners by outward appearance. If a Taiwanese person sees me walking down the street they KNOW I don’t live here. The expectation in America is that everyone is an American… so they have an obligation to learn English.
Here, most locals know you haven’t been here long, and probably don’t intend to stay here long as well, so any skills in Chinese you pick up wins you compliment bone.
To counter that, I’ve met plenty of ABCs and Chinese-looking Americans in Taiwan who get a lot of pressure because they can’t speak Chinese fluently. And no stranger compliments them on the little Chinese they speak. It’s because of appearances and expectations.
I’m not sure if you are talking about America as in NYC and LA, where it seems there is a “melting pot” if you will. Apparently, most Americans don’t live in big cities, and rural, middle class America dominates most of the south and midwest. Please don’t forget that huge chunk.
I am an ABC, and if you are not White in America it is very different. I get treated like a foreigner sometimes. My friend who is also Chinese American was doing sailing up in Maine and some dude who owns the boat rental store said, wow, you speak english very well.
But then again, when I was in NYC, its interesting how I was driving in the street, and some random White guy cuts in front of me, sticks his middle finger up and says, go back to China you Gook. I think if your White in America you don’t realize this, and you keep hearing that America is a melting pot and so we as immigrants must conform.
Problem is, as much as we’d like to, it is damn hard. If you are Indian American (not native american) and walk into some shop in kansas, you’ll get the stares. Trust me. America is still a white country, although it will change soon in the next decade or so. America’s culture is also changing so I don’t believe people should get pissed off about someone not being able to speak English. How the hell do you know if they’ve only been in the country for 1 yr. Can some foreigner in Taiwan speak Chinese well enough in 1 yr without lessons? Let’s face it, Americans demand too much-- especially when it comes to this English crap, thats why they are seen as so egotistical around the world. I think Americans should have a more positive attitude and understand people are adapting and learning.
[quote=“wolf_reinhold”]
There is no way you can compare a country where 99 percent of the people are ethnic Chinese to the US where it is a melting pot of peoples and languages. The United States is the only country where you can become an American. You can’t call yourself an Italian, for instance, after having lived there for 20 years, no matter what your paperwork is.
Twenty years in the States and you can call yourself an American, no matter where you were from. “Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free…” The US has always been a destination for immigrants.[/quote]
Not just the US - I believe that Canada also welcomes immigrants with open arms. We also treat our new citizens as full-fledged Canucks before the ink is even dry on their citizenship papers…
Well, personally that’s what I love about New York. People talk shit about everyone and anything, and it’s only the strong that take and dish it. This has been going on for generations, and its what makes New Yorkers the most unique and toughest people on the planet. Every immigrant group that came to New York had to deal with it… and believe me, the insults go both ways.
People mistake New Yorkers brashness as racism or hate… but it’s just the way we show each other we care… hah.
Why would you call Vietnamese, Chinese, Eastern Europeans, Africans, South Americans and the rest of the people who have immigrated to Canada over the last 200 years and more “draft dodgers?”
There is no way you can compare a country where 99 percent of the people are ethnic Chinese to the US where it is a melting pot of peoples and languages. The United States is the only country where you can become an American. [/quote]
Erm…I might want to add Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and, to a slightly lesser degree, Great Britain and France. No need to wear the ugly American parochial blinders on this forum.
), about half the country spoke some variant of Dutch or German - not English. Something to think about.