Blackwater given boot after killing Iraqi bystanders

Politics International Politics
21

[quote=“Elegua”][quote=“Truant”]Just saw this on CNN.
They are reporting that there are more US civilian contractors (around 180,000) than US troops (120-160,000) in Iraq.

Bush has a very interesting approach. No draft required, just money.

If these contractors are trouble, then the problem is BIG.[/quote]

How many of those 180k are security contractors and how many are dishwashers and wrench turners?
[/quote]

And just what actually is a decent wage to a Filipino truck driver when it involves being shot at?

HG

22

The 770 workers from Sierra Leone working for ESS Support Services Worldwide are paid about $150 a month, roughly 45 cents an hour.
phpdemo.arcog.com/articles-comme … 1r1O3C3npB

Filipino Jesus Gabon was reported by the International Herald Tribune as being paid$450 a month for his high-risk job as a security guard at a military installation.
iht.com/articles/2004/09/02/t3_8.php

Worker’s World says that Filipino workers in Iraq can make as much as $800 a month
workers.org/ww/2004/philippines0729.php

23

[quote=“jdsmith”]I’m sure there are LOTS of other examples.

I hope this gives the Iraqis a sense of self determination. Flush these turds away.[/quote]

funny the way you approach this,but when i start a thread about similar scumbags raping women in all corners of the globe you say something like “the US army is so huge,there’s always gonna be rogue elements,it’s part of the game”

double standards :s

24

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“Elegua”][quote=“Truant”]Just saw this on CNN.
They are reporting that there are more US civilian contractors (around 180,000) than US troops (120-160,000) in Iraq.

Bush has a very interesting approach. No draft required, just money.

If these contractors are trouble, then the problem is BIG.[/quote]

How many of those 180k are security contractors and how many are dishwashers and wrench turners?
[/quote]

And just what actually is a decent wage to a Filipino truck driver when it involves being shot at?

HG[/quote]

Dunno…can’t they get that at home? I mean, why go all the way to Iraq when you can have the same in Manila?

25

[quote=“Elegua”][quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“Elegua”][quote=“Truant”]Just saw this on CNN.
They are reporting that there are more US civilian contractors (around 180,000) than US troops (120-160,000) in Iraq.

Bush has a very interesting approach. No draft required, just money.

If these contractors are trouble, then the problem is BIG.[/quote]

How many of those 180k are security contractors and how many are dishwashers and wrench turners?
[/quote]

And just what actually is a decent wage to a Filipino truck driver when it involves being shot at?

HG[/quote]

Dunno…can’t they get that at home? I mean, why go all the way to Iraq when you can have the same in Manila?[/quote]
At least in Filipino jails the prisoners do Michael Jackson video remakes.

26

Order 17, though it could just as well have been called Catch 22.[/quote]

Wasn’t that only applicable during the reign of the CPA. From CPA Order 17, Section 2, Paragraph 5:

Does Iraqi law have similar provisions? I’ve read conflicting news reports. Some say the Blackwater employees are being held for trial and others say the Iraqi courts can’t prosecute them.

27

[quote=“dablindfrog”][quote=“jdsmith”]I’m sure there are LOTS of other examples.

I hope this gives the Iraqis a sense of self determination. Flush these turds away.[/quote]

funny the way you approach this,but when i start a thread about similar scumbags raping women in all corners of the globe you say something like “the US army is so huge,there’s always gonna be rogue elements,it’s part of the game”

double standards :s[/quote]
How so? Are the soldiers free to leave after they have raped someone? Are they above the law? No. Blackwater guys are.

And please DBF, show me where I EVER said rape was part of the “game.”

28

It does seem like the Blackwater crew is free to commit crime and leave the country without trial or formal investigation. Regular soldiers seem to being held to a much higher standard with a much lower rate of compensation. Rather than have people who basically agree bicker with each other, I’d like to hear about this from the people who argued before that the use of BW was not really that controversial.

29

Order 17, though it could just as well have been called Catch 22.[/quote]

Wasn’t that only applicable during the reign of the CPA. From CPA Order 17, Section 2, Paragraph 5:

Does Iraqi law have similar provisions? I’ve read conflicting news reports. Some say the Blackwater employees are being held for trial and others say the Iraqi courts can’t prosecute them.[/quote]

Apparently this “license to kill” provision has survived by morphing into the current “Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act.” There have been numerous instances of private security contractors committing criminal acts in Iraq and, to my knowledge, none have been prosecuted. Abu Ghraib, for example, where contractors were up to their necks in the abuses there but none having been held accountable.

30

What’s the documentary about this called? “The War Profiteers?”

Something like that.

31

WTF would you go to Iraq as a soldier? Join Blackwater, get paid 3x as much, and have much less accountability.

32

many go back just for that reason Truant.

33

Who are these people? If you are including me in the list, you are mistaken.

34

The best I so far could find with a fast search was this thread and the following exchange between TC and Jaboney there on June this year.

I compiled their respective posts and highlighted those statements I considered most distinctive from both sides (notes from me are in italics):

[quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]And [color=blue]having those mercenaries operating alongside soldiers is corrosive both to morale and the mission.[/color]

note: Question to Jaboney - which mission? Winning hearts and minds? [/quote][quote=“[color=red]Tainancowboy[/color]”][color=red]Your personal feelings? I have seen no reports from the military that this has any truth whatsoever[/color].

Actually quite the opposite has been the case. The contractors have enabled freeing up of Coalition Forces to do the job they are tasked with. The Coalition Forces are not there to guard construction and infrastructure rebuilding efforts, which is what the contractors do.

Do you know any contractors working in Iraq? I do, 3 so far and maybe more as time goes on. [color=red]I have contact with 2 of them on a weekly basis via email and occasionally SKYPE[/color]. They are earning every cent they are making. And frequently are under attack by the terrs. And rememebr this…IED’s don’t discriminate.[/quote][quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]Not my personal assessment.

There are contractors–say, serving meals, doing the laundry–and mercenaries. If you’re a soldier making $x/day, and see a mercenary making $XXX/day, what are you going to think?

And there have many reports that [color=blue]the tactics mercenaries employ–more extreme, less cautious… what did you say, “No ignorant “Rules of Engagement””–have been stirring up trouble for the soldiers to clean up[/color]. Unsurprisingly, the Iraqis affected don’t distinguish between mercenaries going over the top, and the soldiers who catch the brunt of the retaliation.

Do the mercenaries earn their money? Sure. But the job they’re being paid to do makes the job the soldiers are doing more difficult.[/quote][quote=“[color=red]Tainancowboy[/color]”]Jaboney -
Again you are repeating your premise with no supporting information. [color=red]I call BS on your premise[/color].[/quote][quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]TC, there’s lots of documentation supporting the position. [color=blue]If you’re really concerned about the issue, do your homework[/color].[/quote][quote=“[color=red]Tainancowboy[/color]”]Jaboney -
[color=red]So…you are admitting that its just your personal conjecture and nothing more.[/color]

Nothing wrong with that. Opinions are always welcomed. Just admit it when you’re called on trying to use them as facts…unless you can support them…[/quote][quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]Alrighty jdsmith [who also was interested in some links], just for you … I recommend keeping your head though, particular in Iraq (or discussions thereof) … For a thorough investigation of the issue:

[color=blue]PBS: Private Warriors
Washington Post
CNN
Guardian
Guardian: on contractors serving as interpretors and interrogators
Christian Science Monitor
Democracy Now: on private contractors and torture[/color]

Feeling friendly now?

note: I left out Jaboney’s quotes from these sites for brevity’s sake.[/quote][quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]Great thing about mercenaries, they don’t represent anyone. Or rather, they’ll represent anyone willing to pay.[/quote][quote=“[color=red]TainanCowboy[/color]”][color=red]Another comment brought on by unabashed lack of knowledge.[/color][/quote][quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]It’s like playing tennis with the net down. Not that this source is the be all and end all. Not that much care for correcting you.
Machiavelli: The Prince: Chapter 12

note: I left out the direct quote again for brevity. It refers to hired guns already being a problem in Machiavelli’s times.
[/quote][quote=“[color=red]TainanCowboy[/color]”]Jaboney -
[color=red]Is this what Chompskey teaches people like you?[/color] Respond with diversion when asked for facts?..tsk tsk tsk…[/quote]

Summary:
In essence - not much new there.

TC knows is very much in the know because he is on Skype with 2 or 3 private contractors and there is really no military source telling him any problems with private guns either. Impeccable homework on his part as always.

Any problem private contractors may pose for a hearts & minds mission are merely Jaboney’s personal feelings, bullshit and nothing more than personal conjecture based on an unabashed lack of knowledge. Jaboney’s links are not even worth a response and the notion that hired guns are not just recently a problematic issue but already have been throughout history is merely a Chompskeyite diversion and smokescreen.

If you want TC to further elaborate on his point I am sure you can ask him for it here or with a PM.

35

I’d say that accurately represents the substance of the ‘debate’. (If any further clarification is desired, there’s no need to pm me, I’ll respond here.)

I would be interested in hearing what TC’s mercenary friends think of this development. Do they work for Blackwater, and now find themselves facing the prospect of losing their jobs (assuming they won’t be shipped off to provide security in New Orleans)? Do they work for another company, and do they now face having their hands tied by the imposition of Rules of Engagement? :idunno: TC?

[quote=“[color=blue]Jaboney[/color]”]And [color=blue]having those mercenaries operating alongside soldiers is corrosive both to morale and the mission.[/color]

note: Question to Jaboney - which mission? Winning hearts and minds? [/quote][/quote]Which mission? Yeah, you could call it winning hearts and minds. In today’s lingo it would probably be framed as “creating the room for a political solution.”

36

[quote=“Jaboney”]I’d say that accurately represents the substance of the ‘debate’. (If any further clarification is desired, there’s no need to pm me, I’ll respond here.)[/quote]Not certain what this is about. I have ‘games’ on ignore.

[quote=“Jaboney”]I would be interested in hearing what TC’s mercenary friends think of this development.[/quote]It might be interesting to hear what effect this is having there. Other than a terrible decrease in security, which is already reflected in warning to people in Baghdad, I have bo knowledge of what this decision has wrought.[quote=“Jaboney”]Do they work for Blackwater,[/quote]Pne person I know in theater may indeed work for Blackwater. I cannot say for certain.[quote=“Jaboney”]“… and now find themselves facing the prospect of losing their jobs[/quote]And you care? I think not. Just a smug attempt at forwarding a position you have created.[quote=“Jaboney”](assuming they won’t be shipped off to provide security in New Orleans)?[/quote]Droll attempt at humor?[quote=“Jaboney”] Do they work for another company,[/quote]Here you are assuming that the people I know have been terminated from their original company of employment or that their position no longer exists. Dreadfully convenient of you to make these things up just to support your weak-ass arguments…eh?[quote=“Jaboney”]”… and do they now face having their hands tied by the imposition of Rules of Engagement? :idunno: TC?[/quote]Are you still having…no…thats not nice is it? Jaboney…you would be at a loss for discussion if you couldn’t create your own tidy world wouldn’t you? Do you have specific knowledge of any of these things being true? No Jaboney you do not. But it convenient for you to create this as truth and then proceed from there, eh?

note: Question to Jaboney - which mission? Winning hearts and minds? [/quote][/quote]Which mission? Yeah, you could call it winning hearts and minds. In today’s lingo it would probably be framed as “creating the room for a political solution.”[/quote]If that is your interpretation of the actions of all of the private contractors working in Iraq then any further discussion with you is a waste of time. You seem to have it all figured out. You are the fountain of knowledge in this arena. We are very fortunate to have you among us.

And to answer the question you did not think to ask…No, I have not been in contact with person I know in Iraq/Afghanistan in about 2 or 3 weeks.

37

That and anyone else inconvenient to his comfy bubble of ignorance I am sure. :smiley:

Anyhow Scott … you got it from the horse’s mouth: Any further discussion with is a waste of time. There is no problem to address, it is all just in Jaboney’s head.

38

Anyhow, next one …

For Fred I did not really find a big lot. Hardly a surprise as he agrees there is no problem with mercenaries.

Eloquent in its brevity. Was only a side remark in this thread but nevertheless a clear cut statement that Jaboney is apparently just making this stuff up.

There is no problem and Fred knew as early as 2004 that there will be none.

39

[quote=“games”]… a clear cut statement that Jaboney is apparently just making this stuff up.[/quote]I do that.
Well, not this stuff. Happy stories. One day, I’ll get off my butt and write a book. It’ll have pictures. Have you seen my pictures? They suck, worse than my prose. It’ll be awhile before anything’s published.

40

Sorry to tell you, but Fred has cornered the market for rosey stories already. Rumour has it he got into the business cheap when Communism crashed and people kind of ran out of utopian hyperbole.

Try to find a different genre, okay?