Boris Johnson vows to protect Christians

Yeah, there’s probably something in that.

I was just reading Rory Stewart’s account of his walk across Afghanistan. There is no doubt that the oppressively pervasive variant of Islam that exists there is completely incompatible with what a Westerner would understand as “freedom”, and the locals were downright suspicious of that sort of thing.

Stewart excoriates the UN and US as hopelessly naive in their assumption that Afghans would not only welcome such nonsense as “gender inclusiveness” but would actually comprehend what it meant.

Yes and no. The OT is a core part of Judaism and Islam, but Jesus’s intent was specifically to sweep away the turgid legalism of the OT. He had to skirt around this a bit with some diplomatic language, but Romans 6 boils it down:

“Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.”

Paul - I can think of nobody else - had quite a bit to say about the matter of women keeping their place. Paul was a man, a human, expressing his opinions. His opinions can be taken with a grain of salt. One of the main points of departure between Christianity and Catholicism is that Catholics take the word of Saints (eg., Paul) to be on par with the words of Christ. Personally I believe this to be a violation of the First Commandment.

As for why it’s included: I think it’s fairly well accepted that the Gospels may not be completely … um, intact after twenty centuries of translation and transcription. People might have edited them to emphasize things they thought were important at the time.

If you think freedom is a “simple ideal”, you haven’t thought about it much. It’s really, really complicated. All sorts of things restrict your freedom, including religion, and it’s often done for reasons which are justifiable but nevertheless rather arbitrary. Example: the Law restricts your freedom to (say) have sex with 12-year-old boys, even though at certain times and places, other cultures would have seen nothing untoward about that sort of thing. At this time and place, wider society agrees that 12-year-old boys are off-limits, and therefore agrees to restrict and sanction such behaviour. But it’s quite hard to pin down precisely why we do this. We just do.

On a less contentious level, freedoms are sometimes constrained by convention because too much freedom makes people neurotic. Life is complicated enough without having to figure out everything from scratch. Being told that you can do anything and be anything is not helpful if you’re clearly incapable of being a brain surgeon. It just gives people the nagging feeling that they haven’t got what’s rightly theirs. Where it all goes wrong, of course, is when convention becomes too rigid. Someone who actually is capable of being a brain surgeon doesn’t want to be told she can’t because she’s female.

Most people are quite happy with being told what to do as long as being told what to do gives them a reasonable quality of life; that’s why the vast majority of people seek “employment”, and the “benefits” that it brings. Workplace life is highly regimented, as is the routine of getting married, buying a house, and cranking out two-point-four kids. Many people find comfort and a sense of direction/achievement in that.

“Independent”? I’m not so sure about that. Social changes don’t occur in a philosophical vaccuum. All I’m arguing here is that those “independent social processes” were dependent on the ideas that preceded them, and some of those ideas were religious/Christian in nature.

2 Likes

One of the best posts I’ve seen. Great reading thanks for that great insight, and a great read. :+1:

You’re talking about before the Islamic political revolution, not before Islam.

And Islam didn’t fall behind Christianity until more recently.

In fact, after the Spanish Inquisition, the Ottoman empire welcomed Jews and their skills.

I’m talking about both. You wouldn’t have a Islamic political revolution without Islam anyways. It seems any Attempts at Islamic reformation or revolution always turns out worse.

Recently? Islamic golden age was a long long time ago. They have been left behind since the western enlightenment period.

Most of Persia’s achievements came after conversion to Islam.

I’m not so sure. The rise of Muslims coincided with an unprecedented political, social, economic, and military weakness in Persia. Somewhere around 650 AD if I’m not mistaken.

But Paul wrote Romans, and discarding close attention to “the law” was clearly a major concern of his. Jesus went as far as to say that every last scrap of the law should be followed (if we can believe “Matthew”).

Christianity doesn’t consider the writings of Paul in the NT to be scripture? I don’t think this is a prevalent view.

That’s true to some degree, and I think one passage about women wearing headdresses in church is a known example. I’d have to look it up. But most instances can’t be explained in this way given what we do know about the earliest manuscripts. If you want to say that anything could have been added or taken out, then you really have problems.

It’s a very simple ideal. You’re trying to make it complicated, and you could do that for anything if you wanted to. That’s excessive on second thought, my apologies. Perhaps it’s that you’re focused on how it is to be executed in detail, which can undoubtedly be complicated as there are conflicting interests. But the ideal is simple.

Some, but how do you account for the fact that society has changed while the ideals of Christianity presumably should have remained static? Christianity has had an influence on the West, but the West has been going it’s own way more and more for a long time now. Certainly it’s hard to tease things out as Christianity was the only game in town for a long time. It’s not like there were other options of course. That’s a lack of freedom by definition by the way, as seems simple enough to me.

I’m pretty sure.

I was talking about society as a whole. The Persians resisted Islam, most times violently. I don’t think any part of Persian society Accepted Islam. It’s was imposed on them. And it’s not something you leave since the punishment of apostasy was death at the time. And the Arabs Muslims meticulously destroyed Persian culture, so not much to return to. Books from Persian scholars would have been destroyed. So I don’t doubt you can find more on scholars after. I think many looking back would argue they would have been better off if the Arabs Muslims didn’t do all that and set them back for ages.

It’s like saying Taiwan was better off after the KMT came and issued martial law. In some metrics, yeah. But who’s to say a entire generation of Taiwanese intellectuals and political leaders killed off and suppressed wasnt actually worse.

Iran was very weak after all of this happened, it would take a long time to recover. But you can probably make the argument that they were already going downhill from constant wars when the Muslims came.

1 Like

You’re saying the flowering of Persian science and mathematics occurred while their society went backwards?

Most of the flowering happened centuries after the Muslims took Iran by force. It’s not really out of the ordinary that science improved as time went on. It’s definitely a positive they now had access to the rest of the Muslim world to exchange ideas and such.

I didn’t see anyone in the list of hundreds that occurred before their conversion to Islam.

Islam was ahead of Christianity for a long time, too.

Christians slaughtered way more Jews than Muslims.

Islam eventually took an anti-intellectual turn, but it was much later.

I have no idea why when someone defends Islam, their #1 defense is but the Christians. I’ve never once heard of anyone defend Christianity use “but the Muslims”. What exactly was the purpose of this statement? Since we are talking about Iran, how many Zoroastrians do you know? What happened to them.

Where are all the Jews and Christians in the Middle East BTW? They came from the same place. Why do some Islamic countries have zero Jews living there? I’m not sure you want to go with this line of argument in a threat about religious oppression.

No one is denying the Islamic golden age. That was surely a wonderful time for those who submitted to Islam. What happened to Persians who did not? Other groups who did not?

If you’re argument is a society had more scientific advancement and ones we know about in the last 1500 years, it’s not really much of an argument. That’s a given. The reality is Persian culture was oppressed. Their books were burn so Probably why you’re not seeing many people on this list before 650. Good luck finding all the intellectual works by the Zoroastrian scholars. Their country was weak and it took centuries before they entered into the Islamic golden age.

Islamic golden age wasn’t some isolated thing either. They were advancing so fast because they were conquering everyone around them and therefore gaining other people’s knowledge. Would the Islamic golden age have happened if the Muslims didn’t take Iran, who were major contributors?

1 Like

Because a lot of people attacking Islam are Christians who are either hypocritical or lack self awareness.

Glad you asked. I actually met a person with a Zoroastrian background and another one married to someone with a Zoroastrian background.

They live mostly in India, and they don’t have many members because they don’t convert people.

Don’t know, they probably put 2 out of 3 Jews in the Middle East into the gas chamber or something. Oh wait…

Coming from the same place doesn’t matter. Most Jews in Judea were transported into Europe by the Romans. There were Jews remaining in Babylonia and Persia.

And then Spanish kicked out their Jews, and Sephardic Jews went back to areas of the Ottoman empire.

Christians didn’t kill or torture people who didn’t convert? Spanish Inquisition?? Father Junipero Serra???

There are plenty of Arab contributors.

David Berlinski noted, Islam spurred science because they needed precise measurements in order to face Mecca.

So tell me why Muslim women are more educated than Christian women in the United States.

Is it because Christian women are dumb? Does Christianity encourage female stupidity? Or just Sarah Palin.

Where did you find that stat? It’s not that I disbelieve it, it seems plausible for a relatively small immigrant group. I looked above but didn’t see anything, apologies if you posted it.

It’s in this book. I can take a picture of the exact page when I get home (I’m at work).

Edit: Actually, I already returned it to the library. I’ll try to find another source.
https://smile.amazon.com/When-Islam-Not-Religion-Religious/dp/1643131311/ref=sr_1_1?crid=EF6Q2R6PO5AK&keywords=islam+is+not+a+religion&qid=1577380927&s=books&sprefix=islam+is+not+a+%2Caps%2C158&sr=1-1

1 Like

It happens a lot. part of a recurring pattern, perhaps. Read Glubb’s Fate of Empires. It’s called the Age of Intellect.

1 Like