Both/all grammar question

Language English Grammar & Usage
1

I’m having a difficult time figuring out how to classify the part of speech of “both/all” in a specific sentence. They can be a determiner (specifically a “quantifier”) or a pronoun. But there’s one place where the grammar is fuzzy for me.

Q: Who went up the hill, Jack or Jill?
A1: Both of them went up the hill. (pronoun)
A2: Both Jack and Jill went up the hill. (determiner)
A3: They both went up the hill. ???

In A3 it looks like it would be a determiner, but then wouldn’t this violate the rule that determiners only modify nouns and precede the noun phrase?

2

Just one of those things I guess. :idunno:

3

It’s an adverb.

(I’m not an English teacher, but I have seen Imaniou play one on TV)

4

Could be an appositive since “they” and “both” refer to the same people and either could be omitted leaving a grammaticaly correct form.

Sorry BFM but there is no way it is an adverb. Adverbs can do many things but being part of the subject is not one of them.

5

[quote=“bob”]

Sorry BFM but there is no way it is an adverb. Adverbs can do many things but being part of the subject is not one of them.[/quote]

You sure? “the people there are crazy”–is there not an adverb?

6

Don’t think so. “There” in that sentence is identical in grammatical function to an adjective phrase such as “at forumosa” in the sentence “The people at forumosa are crazy but not lazy”.

7

ahhhh. i could agree with that and would think the “both” in question would be in the same category. so what is such a word called then?

8

An exception? :blush: It’s not quite like “there” though because “there” describes “the people” and is more like a reduced adjective phrase, while “they” and “both” in the other sentence equate, so both is more like an appositive IMHO… yup, I think appositive is the word we are looking for.

9

i don’t agree they equate. i think it just emphasizes the “each person” aspect of they.

10

bob said:[quote]Could be an appositive since “they” and “both” refer to the same people and either could be omitted leaving a grammaticaly correct form. [/quote]

I agree with bob that, as used here, both is playing the role of “appositive.” However, “appositive” is not a part of speech per se, any more than a “subject” or an “object” is a part of speech. For example:

[color=blue]My brother[/color] [color=darkblue]Jack [/color][color=blue]went up the hill.
[/color]
Jack is a noun. It is a noun that is playing the role of “appositive” in this sentence.

puiwaihin

As used here, both is an appositive, and appositives can be only nouns or pronouns. Therefore, both, as used here, is a pronoun.

11

I appositively agree!

12

I see what you mean too. Honestly I think this is one of those :idunno: situations.

13

I considered them being appositives, but sort of discarded the idea since appositives rename the subject. But in these examples, they are quantifying them.

Both Fred and George are Weasleys. == They both are Weasleys.

In the first sentence “both” is clearly a determiner (quantifier). You couldn’t say that ‘Fred and George’ is an appositive of “both” in this instance. It doesn’t rename or give more information about them, it just quantifies them.

So, in the second sentence it seems “both” is performing the same function, but in contravention of the rules for determiners. I don’t think it really fits the definition of appositive.

I did a look-up of determiner phrases and noun phrases, and there were some parts of the noun phrase called “post modifiers”. I think that “both” and “all” can function in in this determiner capacity with a pronoun, but the syntax is inverted from that of using them with nouns.

14

At times like these I’m glad that I’m a native speaker. Trying to learn the more difficult grammatical rules must be so frustrating because there are probably more exceptions than rules!

teggs

15

[quote=“teggs”]At times like these I’m glad that I’m a native speaker. Trying to learn the more difficult grammatical rules must be so frustrating because there are probably more exceptions than rules!

teggs[/quote]
Yesh, I had no idea what was going on either.

16

Puiwaihin will probably correct me but I think this little convo demonstrates why so many people abandon the cognitive approach. It is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water though. There are areas of grammar that are amenable to analysis and explanation and other areas that are not.

A conversation like this one would be absolutely useless to 99.9% of ESL students and 100% of EFL students.

17

Yep, life really is a bitch trying to figure out the difference between that “both and all” crap.

18

Puiwaihin wrote:

[quote]Both Fred and George are Weasleys. == They both are Weasleys.

In the first sentence “both” is clearly a determiner (quantifier). You couldn’t say that ‘Fred and George’ is an appositive of “both” in this instance. It doesn’t rename or give more information about them, it just quantifies them. [/quote]

Nope, sorry. In the first sentence, Both is clearly being empoyed because of its “conjunction” usage.

In the second sentence, it’s an appositive.

Both does in fact both “rename” and “give more information about” the subject They.

Consider:

[quote]We foreigners all spend too much time dissecting grammar instead of attempting to get laid.
[/quote]
:wink:

19

[quote=“Peter-Paul”]Puiwaihin wrote:

[quote]Both Fred and George are Weasleys. == They both are Weasleys.

In the first sentence “both” is clearly a determiner (quantifier). You couldn’t say that ‘Fred and George’ is an appositive of “both” in this instance. It doesn’t rename or give more information about them, it just quantifies them. [/quote]

Nope, sorry. In the first sentence, Both is clearly being empoyed because of its “conjunction” usage.

In the second sentence, it’s an appositive.[/quote]
That’s correct according to Webster’s, but there are a lot of other sources that call it a determiner. Here’s one source:
fortunecity.com/bally/durrus … mch20.html

But thanks for giving the option. That might be the easier explanation.

As for the second one, I don’t think it’s an appositive. The purpose of an appositive is to clarify or give further information. “both” does not do this, but rather specifies quanitity. It would have been a convenient explanation, though, and I may still use it if called upon.

Classifying it as a conjunction seems to be in line with more traditional, Latin-based classifications of grammar. Classifying it as a determiner seems to be a product of modern linguistics. But since we’re teaching here in Taiwan it may best to stick to the traditional.

[quote]Both does in fact both “rename” and “give more information about” the subject They.

Consider:

“we foreigners all”- foreigners would be an appositive for “we”, but “all” would be a quantifier. All does not rename “we”, it quantifies us. You could say “both we foreigners” or “we both, foreigners,…”

It seems that “both” and foreigners are functioning differently.

20

My dear, dear puiwaihin

Thanks for including that reference site. But do read it fully.

On that very same web page (search for it), we see:

[quote]Defining appositives such as all, both and each are not preceded and followed by commas.
e.g. We each have our own ideas.[/quote]

In your last posting, you state:

But that seems illogical to me: isn’t “specifying quantity” giving further information? Further, again, from that same web page: “Like relative clauses, appositives can be defining or non-defining.”

You also state that (in referring to “both”):

I’d refer you to that same website that you cited, in a section called “Correlative Conjunctions”

[quote]The most commonly used correlative conjunctions are both … and, either … or and neither … nor.

both … and He is both intelligent and good-natured.
[/quote]