oh tigerman, it seems that although you may be very good at quoting others in your painfully long posts, you neglect to actually think before you write. So, according to your last, shall I say entertaining(?), post that if you pulled a runner it would be ok, but it is not alright for others to do the same. Also, when I mentioned an employer having a reputation for shafting employees I obviously meant shafting employees who had not pulled runners (how can you shaft someone who has run away?). Lastly, I hope you feel fortunate that you have never had a boss who treated you unfairly at times, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that not everyone is so lucky.
Perhaps it is your reading comprehension that is lacking?
How do you reach that conclusion? I stated that even had I done something wrong, it would not make it right for someone else to do the same wrong. I never stated that my doing wrong would be right or otherwise acceptable.
This is irrelevant. In the OP’s case, we know that he/she is contemplating breaking his/her contract and running. Absent a good reason for breaking the contract, doing so is wrong, IMO.
I did not state that I never worked for an unreasonable/unfair employer, did I? I said only that I have never breached a contract or skipped out on a contract.
Perhaps you ought to read more carefully and think more thoroughly before you post again.
it seems tigerman suggested that just because “someone” had done something in the past that was wrong would not make it right for someone else to do it later. he used himself in this example. how you got to the position in your post is beyond me.
you still haven’t explained how breaking a contract and thereby losing a month’s pay, if that’s what is in the contract in the event of breaking it, is shafting someone. was the previous employee shafted? they did leave early no? admittedly harsh if it was a true excuse, but think about how many people use that same excuse to “go traveling” or whatever.
again - don’t sign something that you’re not comfortable with, and especially don’t sign something you can’t read - for major documents, get an official copy in English or have someone with you who can read Chinese.
just because you don’t have a problem with people running away and breaking contracts, does not mean everyone here has the blinders on.
Tigerman asked about this yet you failed to answer his question so I will ask again.
How is it that you have an ARC through your current employer without signing a contract with them?
The rest of what you wrote was just a rehash of earlier comments and still fails to justify the suggestion that it is okay to sign a contract agreeing to a penalty for premature breach and then just skip out without notice to avoid this penalty. If yuo have something new to add then feel free to do so. If you are just going to rehash what has already been said then you probably don’t need to bother.
EDIT: Is it just me, or do neea’s posts appear similar to those of Jessiah, the OP of this thread, and the person that newly registered neea is attempting to defend. If so, then Jessiah just stick to one username - it makes it much easier for others to follow the discussion.
This comment is a little bit unreasonable. I see nothing but a group of people calmly discussing the topic. No one is getting any “treatment”.
I fail to see where this hostility is coming from. :no-no:
He never said it would be ok if he “pulled a runner”.
Again, he never said this. Where is this coming from?
This happened at the first school I ever worked for in Taiwan. The owner would simply write the employees names on the Chinese contracts himself. I’m not sure how he got away with this for so long.
Two questions.
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Since you admit that there’s no great emergency and you just want to quit early to do some traveling, why not just wait another 2 months and fulfill your contractual obligations? It sounds more than a bit flakey to work 10 months into a 12 month contract and just quit with only 2 more months to go. 2 months is no big deal - the time will fly by before you know it.
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You can easily arrange for a substitute teacher to take over from you before you leave. There are tons of foreigners in Taiwan these days, looking for jobs. Unless your boss is a totally unreasonable psycho (which he may be, given the buxiban industry’s standards) he should have no problem with such a solution.
One more point. In Taiwan it seems that “contracts” aren’t really contracts as understood in the West where there is rule of law, but are loose guidelines always open to further negotiation. Unless I have misread typical Taiwanese culture, that is the case here when most parties enter into contractual agreements. Another part of Taiwanese culture is that the boss/employee relationship is very one-sided. That is why so many people in Taiwan go into business for themselves, because traditional Asian culture encourages tyrannical employer behavior. Most “contracts” between teachers and school owners seem to only go one way - the employer can enforce the contract against the employee, but just try and see how far a teacher will get if they try to enforce the contract on their boss. Ha! Employees do not have rights in Taiwan. OK, that’s a mild exagerration, but only a mild one. Trying to buck an unfair system that’s loaded and stacked against the employee is fair and reasonable given the circumstances. Bonded labour is immoral even if it technically legal in certain backwards Asian societies that have yet adopt the concept of workers’ rights. That is why comparisons to the way things work back home is not irrelevant to the situation in Taiwan.
Very well put, Rubicon. I agree completely.
I also agree the person should fulfill the contract if possible, especially if he is ten months into it. Then he can avoid all the unpleasantness and sidestep the hypothetical troubles altogether.
However, I agree with your point about contracts in Taiwan. Some people, no matter how long they may live here, just don’t get this aspect of Taiwan. Contracts don’t have the same meaning here as in the west. In fact, they are often a starting point for negotiations, rather than an end.
I also agree with your point about the morality of bonded labour. It is immoral. There is absolutely no justification for stealing a whole month of one’s labour. Despite the fact that this penalty may be written into a contract, and may even be legal here, it isn’t right or just to rip off that much from a worker. That’s why I believe if OP must leave, and feels there is sufficient risk of this money being STOLEN (because that is what witholding earned wages is), then he ought to run in order to protect himself. Employers who put this nonsense into employment contracts get what they deserve, IMO.
Then do you also believe that employers should be able to suddenly and without notice terminate an employee’s contract and NOT be required to pay a month’s salary to the employee?
if there is nothing like this in a contract, it’s highly likely that many foreigners would spend the majority of their free-time running between bushibans trying to get an extra 20 NT an hour, or more bonuses, and flaking off from wherever they were already working with little/no notice, because the contract doesn’t say that they need to give any. i mean, if it’s not in the contract …
a lot of people get into these kinds of situations because they don’t bother to do any checking into a prospective situation other than finding out the hourly pay. they sign their lives away (on a document they can’t read) for that extra $$$, and then soon after find out what a shithole they’ve entered, and try to get out of it, or just take off. not everyone - lying and other crap goes on too, as some laobans are pondscum and worse, but a little due diligence goes a long way.
i’ve been told that i’m not smart for teaching some hours at a lower rate of pay than other surrounding places are offering. but i know what i’m getting everyday, and that i’ll get paid every day. i have complaints about that school too (is there a utopia here?), but i’ve never had to consider running away because i checked into it before i signed on. and i’m still there after seven years, although to a lesser degree than when i came here.
rubicon - finding a sub is a good idea. i’ve done some of that for people who had to leave. most laobans are really only concerned that there is a face in the classroom, and don’t care much beyond that. strange no one mentioned this yet.
finally, the point remains that employees who are let go for no reason expect severence pay. should we do away with that as well, and then be able to run around from place to place looking for that extra 20 NT?
Train, I know for a fact that GES didn’t put any crap like a month’s salary penalty for resigning in your contract – or mine for that matter. The most they would have witheld was a week’s pay, fully refundable if you gave any notice before leaving. End result? I always dealt with them honestly.
Severence pay? Yes, employers should pay it in lieu of notice. I don’t see how this weighs in on our current debate, though. The current employee would be subject to this immmoral and hardship producing penalty EVEN IF he provides sufficient notice of resignation.
Just because someone puts something in a contract --and it may even be legal in developing countries such as this one-- doesn’t make it justifiable, right or just. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: Employers who put this kind of nonsense in their contracts get what’s coming to them. Employers who have to use excessive coercion and financial penalties to hold on to staff are lousy places to work.
Contract legality and morality are separate issues. Stealing a month of an employee’s wages is a dirty thing to do, regardless of the legality of it. People are fully justified in taking measures to protect themselves from improper and excessively punitive behaviour on the part of their employer. Therefore, if this person sees a real risk of his money being stolen, he should take whatever measures necessary to protect himself and his interests.
actually GES is two weeks for your first six months, and then one week after that. also, please take into account that this school has how many foreign teachers? 60 or more? so getting someone to cover for a person who screws off in the middle of the night is not such a big deal. how about when this person is one of three teachers, or two, or the only one? what then? sorry kids, no teacher today, please pay tuition at the front.
exactly. if you don’t like it - don’t sign the contract. no one puts a gun to your head and says sign here. look around a little, ask some questions, use resources such as forumosa to find out before you commit. obviously some schools don’t include this, or lessen the penalty (see above). maybe the trade-off is that your hour pay is lower. don’t sign things you can’t read. see if the school offers a six month deal - some do (don’t ask me how they do this legally, or if they do it legally, but it’s not unheard of.)
finally, try to find a sub. the boss will be happy to have a face (sorry, teacher), and there will be less problems trying to get your $$$.
My point is the unchanged with this revelation. GES can cover teachers leaving. Most schools, in fact, can. That’s one reason why local teachers are employed as well as foreigners. Fact is, GES is not penalizing teachers a month salary for leaving. Give notice and all funds are paid out. No retribution or hardship-causing penalities. No reason to pull a runner. Might be why they enjoy such a large percentage of long term, reliable teachers, despite the fact their pay is lack luster. But since you’ve enjoyed the benefits of a relatively decent employer, perhaps you could show some sympathy for those who haven’t been so lucky?
Thankfully not, Train. But I’d argue there is a duress element involved when an employee wants a job and needs money. And you’re still not addressing the morality issue of these kinds of financial penalties. It’s wrong to steal an employee’s money. Care to argue otherwise?
My point in raising the GES example, Train, was to bring to your attention the fact that you have been fortunate enough to work for an employer who doesn’t have this kind of nonsense in their employment contracts. You don’t face the same kind of threat as OP does. Let’s not stand in judgement of him if he needs to act in order to prevent a signifigant financial loss.
I’ll state yet again that an employer putting something in a contract-- which may or may not be legal in a developing country such as this-- does not make it moral or decent. Yes, we should all be blessed with the foresight to never sign such agreements in the firstplace, but we all make mistakes. Now OP wants to leave the job (and none of us have ever wanted to do that, right?) and is faced with the possibility of losing an entire months salary. I say it isn’t decent for an employer to try to take his money.
The school ensures that this type of thing happens regularly with penalties and clauses in their contract that provide disincentives for honest behaviour. The school brings it on itself if the only way a teacher can ensure receiving all or most of his money, in the event of a resignation, is by running. Schools that have this kind of penalty clause in their contracts are behaving indecently, even if they may be behaving lawfully. When faced with the prospect of indecent actions from an employer, I cannot judge an employee for behaving in a similarly less than upstanding way in order to protect himself.
i would argue that native teachers are not hired for this reason - if it were so, then there would be no need of foreign teachers at all, if natives could do the job themselves, and parents wouldn’t complain. a parent who is told that there is no foreign teacher available for their class will not be happy, and may choose to go elsewhere. whether this is parentally a smart decision or not, that’s how it is.
having said this, i’m not completely sure about your statement that most schools can cover for teachers leaving in the night. not every place is a chain with a double-digit number of foreigners. the face needs to be there.
a duress element? sorry, that is no excuse for not looking around and finding things out before you sign the piece of paper. everyone needs money, to one extent or another, but we don’t all go jumping for the first offer presented. and how can you call it stealing when the employee agreed to this while signing the paper. if you believe it’s a moral issue, then don’t sign the paper. find a place that doesn’t do this. if you sign it, live with it. i might be of a different mind if this penalty was somehow imposed after everything had been discussed and signed. ask questions first. but when you know what you’re getting into (and ignorance is not a defense) and then boo hoo later, well … what did you expect?
your statement that i have been fortunate in my choice of workplace ignores the fact that i did my asking around and then signed a contract - i can’t find sympathy for those who put their name to a piece of paper, usually in the name of higher pay (be honest) and then decide to go on vacation instead of fulfilling it - it’s wrong. i’ve been offered more money at other places and turned it down, because something didn’t seem right. stupid? maybe, but i haven’t had these problems as a result.
and yes, we all make mistakes. and we sometimes have to live with the consequences. or should there always be a “get-outta-jail-free” card? where do you draw the line on this? when do we need to take responsibilty for the things we do? it’s not like the op had a life sentence either - 2 months left. 8 weeks. and some holidays in there. finish up what you started, and then (likely) no problems. at the very least, find a sub (why is this not a reasonable solution?)
if you really believe your last paragraph, then do something about it. tell people to avoid schools that have this type of thing included in the contract. work for other places that don’t have it - they do exist. maybe then something will be done about it. but trying to shift responsibility afterwards for something you’ve signed is not the answer.
The money is not being stolen, and it is misleading of you to suggest that it is. This continues the myth of some impropriety on behalf of the employer, when clearly there is none in this case. If you sign the contract then you are agreeing to the terms contained within that contract. This gives the employer all the justification that they need to exercise their rights under that agreement.
Your continued suggestion that it
Well, I did say I was going to take flack for backing the teacher. (LOL.) But I do not regret nor do I repent my stance. Poor, poor buxiban laobans…
Yes, everything they do is just and moral. Teachers ought to just take it up the kazzoo and honour every letter of the employer centered contract, regardless of the Draconian measures that may be in it.
My first day in this country was a lesson in Taiwanese contract law. Ever since then I’ve been hyper aware of Taiwan’s contract culture. Locals wouldn’t fail to protect themselves from such measures. Only foreigners would tell another to bend over and take a loss like 60k or more.
And so your answers to the questions raised are…
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Just because you sign a contract doesn’t necessarily make it enforceable. You can sign yourself into slavery but that does not make slavery legal and such a contract would be thrown out of court in most countries. You can sign a contract with illegal provisions such as deposits, but those deposits are still illegal in Taiwan and contract or no contract, it cannot be enforced by Taiwanese law. So the relevant issue, as regards legal enforcability, is not what the contract states, but what Taiwanese law says regarding withholding a month’s pay if an employee quits without advance notice. Unfortunately for the employee, the law in Taiwan is on the side of the employer in such a case - withholding a month’s pay is perfect legal in Taiwan. However, on the flip side, if an employer abruptly terminates an employee, the employee is likewise entitled to a severance package as stipulated by Taiwanese law.
I believe that I conceded this in an earlier post.
The fact is that illegal clauses should be invalid and fortunately they are. Equally, contract breach should be penalized whether it be an employment contract or residential lease.
How is that unfortunate? This is a genuine question, as your comment seems to continue the concept that the employer is somehow acting in a less than honorable manner by choosing to enforce the terms agreed to in the contract. This is the thing that I don
I bailed on a contract once. I argued for months about unfair deductions from my salary, proposed an ammendment to my contract, warned that I was contemplating quitting, and eventually walked out. I don’t have any guilt about doing so, because I tried to fix the situation first. (That was for IACC, btw, an agency with a terrible reputation. I knew a teacher working for them who still got bonuses even though she quit early.)
Later on I was fired for trying to insist that my new employer abide by the terms of my contract - and I forced them to pay me off. You do have redress if your employer is screwing you. So I have sympathy for anyone in a bad job, and don’t want to preach about how you should ‘never’ walk out.
But if you’re in a place for ten months and don’t appear to have a legitimate grievance then you have no need to do a runner. You simply have to give notice like it says in the contract. I’ve quit jobs, where I didn’t have a contract, with up to two months notice and helped to find people to replace me. I’ve never had a problem with it. I also have a continuing relationship with a school that chooses not to enforce the terms of the contract we signed to get me an ARC.
As long as I treat them decently they treat me decently, and I don’t get hit for the draconian penalties they have could charge me for lateness on the occasional day where it does happen. So why do they have these penalties written in? To protect themselves against useless space-wastes who don’t have enough strength of character to behave decently, that’s why. Contracts may seem to be weighted in favour of the employer, but that’s because employers get tired of employees screwing them. It doesn’t automatically mean that the employer is trying to screw you,
The OP should treat his employer fairly, and expect to be paid as per the contract. If there is a problem then he/she can come back here for help in dealing with that situation - from people who have been through it all and know how to deal with it.
Sometimes employers can be surprisingly understanding. And in this case you apparently have some time to do the groundwork.
If you’re planning to catch a flight from Taiwan in September then you’re presumably thinking of quitting in July. You have months in which to sound out your employer, drop a few hints, and gradually bring them around to the idea that they might like to find someone to replace you a bit early. If you time your trip to coincide with the end of the school semester then they need a replacement for the summer program, which is a good way to test-drive a new teacher before signing them up for the coming academic year. You could actually play this so that they are grateful to you for helping them out in this way.
Some schools pay bonuses to teachers who help recruit new staff, btw.