Taiwan’s voting results misled you and most Taiwan watchers. There is no fixed way of interpreting what it means to vote Green or Blue. The correct interpretation changes on a case-by-case basis.
If you’re out of touch with the zeitgeist of Taiwan (due to living abroad or not fully raised in Taiwan, limited language skills etc), or not even aware of that there is such thing, it is extremely hard to read it, let aloe making sense of it.
In retrospect it is to Taiwan’s advantage in terms of national strategy and survival by being hard to read.[/quote]
Many on this board have made similar comments to me regarding the “non unification” connotation of Blue voting. I agree that any one election can be driven any variety of issues and I wouldn’t place much weight in any single particular outcome. However, when I observed the macro results of the presidential, legislative and municipal elections from 2000-2012, and saw that the Blues won most of them (and CSB only won in 00 with a plurality) it was/is hard for me to not conclude that the Taiwanese voters don’t more strongly favor a unification posture than an independence one. When you add in the “voting with you feet” element of Taiwanese companies and people moving to China, capital investment in China, the purchase of goods and services from China (all the while knowing that China wants to force unification) my feelings on this issued strengthened. I certainly don’t have any noticeable insights into the true hearts and minds of the Taiwanese people, but decisions have consequences and the Taiwanese majority has mad decisions that make it appear to the rest of the world (well, me at least) that they don’t want independence and want stronger economic and other ties to a China that wants to absorb them.
Taiwan’s voting results misled you and most Taiwan watchers. There is no fixed way of interpreting what it means to vote Green or Blue. The correct interpretation changes on a case-by-case basis.
If you’re out of touch with the zeitgeist of Taiwan (due to living abroad or not fully raised in Taiwan, limited language skills etc), or not even aware of that there is such thing, it is extremely hard to read it, let aloe making sense of it.
In retrospect it is to Taiwan’s advantage in terms of national strategy and survival by being hard to read.[/quote]
Many on this board have made similar comments to me regarding the “non unification” connotation of Blue voting. I agree that any one election can be driven any variety of issues and I wouldn’t place much weight in any single particular outcome. However, when I observed the macro results of the presidential, legislative and municipal elections from 2000-2012, and saw that the Blues won most of them (and CSB only won in 00 with a plurality) it was/is hard for me to not conclude that the Taiwanese voters don’t more strongly favor a unification posture than an independence one. When you add in the “voting with you feet” element of Taiwanese companies and people moving to China, capital investment in China, the purchase of goods and services from China (all the while knowing that China wants to force unification) my feelings on this issued strengthened. I certainly don’t have any noticeable insights into the true hearts and minds of the Taiwanese people, but decisions have consequences and the Taiwanese majority has mad decisions that make it appear to the rest of the world (well, me at least) that they don’t want independence and want stronger economic and other ties to a China that wants to absorb them.[/quote]
You are wrong. CSB won in 2004 against Lian Zhang and James Soong.
Also, all opinion polls seem to indicate that the Taiwanese do not want unification, the majority for independence either now or later is well established. Moreover, they do not even identify as Chinese any more, or only 3% of the population does.
The voting with your feet thing is Taiwan corporations moving manufacturing to where labor is cheap, that’s it. They are better at that than climbing up the value chain.
During all elections I have been following and you are now back from 1995, no party got any significant share of the vote by advocating unification with China, the KMT promised that they would be a safe pair of hands in managing China, and that they would safeguard Taiwan.
Your reading of this seems to come from the Taiwan Affairs Office of the PRC, and it is of the same quality.
Zhengzhou: Taiwanese businessmen in China, who are overwhelmingly pro-KMT, have largely said they’ll be sitting out this election. They’d rather let Tsai Ing-wen win then lose a day’s income. The candidate they vote for is money.
Right, I believe that’s what everybody looks at too, across time and geography.
Hey don’t be too hard on yourself. We’re not saying you’re a traitor or anything like that. Not trying to pressure you to make choices that you don’t want.
If I have to choose between China and Japan, I’d choose to merge sovereignty with Japan, because spiritually and culturally I feel more at home in Japan than in China. Personally I’m quite confident I can achieve fluency in Japanese in 1 to 2 years at this age.
A day’s income lost for business owners, just because they fly to Taiwan? No. How about plane ticket?
Oh, you think they’re not possibly that cheap? They ARE that cheap, and proud of it.[/quote]
I have not stepped inside a voting booth in ages. No, all of my voting
are done via absentee ballots by mail.
I don’t like waiting in line. I don’t like being forced to vote on a particular
date. I request my ballot and fill it out within nothing but my underwear
on and a beer in my hand. Wet the stamp with the condensation on the
cold beer bottle and seal the envelope. Mail the ballot back and they
can count my vote whenever. I cast my best votes after I’ve downed
about 6 or 7 cold beers in the privacy of my own home.
(in other words, I’m a lazy voter)
Guess Taiwan is really far from having mail-in ballots… (if ever)
Hmm, I remembered it slightly wrong: “Taiwanese businesses in China face a lot of hardships these days, and the Taiwanese there have no time to pay attention to local politics. On top of that, most of them feel next year’s election is already decided, and there’s no need to waste a trip.” It should be: they just don’t even
I have a better idea. Why mail-in if you can vote online, like Switzerland?
If you can file your tax online, why not vote online, and why does everybody have to vote on the same day?
I have a better idea. Why mail-in if you can vote online, like Switzerland?
If you can file your tax online, why not vote online, and why does everybody have to vote on the same day?[/quote]
Thank you for your comments. I will respond to you points individually, but I would note at the onset that I was responding to sofun’s comments on how I and many others could have been “misled” about Taiwan’s election results. In that regard, I was trying to transparently explain the situations that could have “misled” me; I wasn’t trying to assert them as “truth.” I post here to engage in discussions and expand my understanding of Taiwan (including gaining insight on where my perceptions are erroneous) - I’m not trying to convince anyone of the rightness of my views.
[quote=“Mr He”]
You are wrong. CSB won in 2004 against Lian Zhang and James Soong. [/quote]
How am I wrong? I said that the macro result of the 2000-12 elections was that the Blues won most (not all) of them. I agree that CSB won in 04, and he even won by a pure majority (albeit a small one). And, I noted he won by plurality in 00. Still the Blues carried the majority of positions in almost all the legislative and municipal elections during the same period as well as the 08 and 12 presidencies. I don’t see how one can say that the Blues didn’t win most of the elections during this period.
Agreed, the opinion poll results show majority objection to unification and majority identification as Taiwanese. I don’t deny such results, but I do discount the value of opinion polls (answers made in the absence of consequence) relative to election decisions (answers made with consequence) and personal economic decisions (where no one decision has deep consequence, but they have a collective weight nonetheless). I can’t say that the opinion polls might not show the true belief of the Taiwanese people, but I can’t say that they aren’t just convenient and easy answers that are made when nothing is on the line either. 14 was an watershed year. I will give greater credence to the polls if future electoral results are consistent over a significant period of time.
I agree that Taiwanese entrepreneurs are likely motivated in their capital/investment decisions by economic and business considerations rather than political motivations. But, given that China has been very transparent about its desire to unify Taiwan through political, diplomatic, economic and other means (including some level of coercion), such entrepreneurs are also consciously deciding that the impact of their decisions in strengthening China and making independence harder are less important than their economic self gain. By way of analogy, I presume that most Escalade drivers in the U.S. did not pick their vehicles to intentionally increase American petrol dependency; but that is the still the net effect even if it wasn’t the intent (i.e., I care more about having a fabulous blinged out car than I do about helping to conserve petroleum resources).
True, no party has ever won by advocating a strong line on near term unification. But the Blues have also won while stressing their opposition to TI and have never removed their platforms claiming to rule China or seeking eventual unification. Moreover, notwithstanding their campaign slogans, after the election many Blues have still worked to strengthen ties with China and have rejected independence and Taiwan-centric views of identity and in education. MYJ even renamed the Memorial Hall back to honor CKS. Have the Taiwanese voters been repeatedly duped (and thus are very gullible) or is there something else at work?
Well, I guess I’ve graduated from being considered a wu mao to TAO stooge. Progress.
Looks like Xi Jinping doesn’t think highly of the TAO’s analysis either. Solidarity and Thinking Taiwan are reporting that a PRC anti-corruption campaign relative to former TAO officials is aimed at changing policy and eliminating nepotism/collusion between Chinese officials and Taiwanese businessmen and politicians which was “impeding” unification. Also, XJP is upset that the TAO was so badly off base in its predictions on the 14 elections and the Sunflowers.
I was chatting with a friend from Beijing recently who indicated that one of the biggest impediments to the resolution of the Taiwan issue on China’s side was that TAO staffers and and leaders were mostly second and third stringers. All the top notch foreign policy and economic policy folks are at the regular foreign and financial-oriented ministries and agencies; the Chinese leadership is putting its best people at work on relationships with major states and nations (US, Europe, Japan) rather than Taiwan. More amusingly, my friend noted that many regular Chinese are somewhat embarrassed at the North Korea like aspects of the TAO’s stilted public statements (“The spokesman said the mainland will unswervingly advance the peaceful development of cross-Strait ties despite any disturbance”) the anachronistic clothes and hairstyles of its spokespersons (Fan Liqing seems to enjoys special ridicule in this regard). I don’t know how true it is, but my friend noted that about 30% of her demographic (under 40; urban, well educated, professionals) could care less about this issue - they would not oppose independence and do not foresee unification. That is only a sliver of the Chinese population, but it perhaps signals a wider possible trend for the future.
Understood. But voting for money is still a choice and in this context it means voting for economic self-gain even if it comes at the cost of impeding Taiwan’s independence and deepening its ties to China. The Taishang wanted the “easy” return of low cost labor in China where they knew the culture and language; they could have taken actions that would have been more supportive of independence or autonomy if they put more of their investment in SE Asia but the returns would have been lower and the upfront risks and difficulties would have been higher - so they picked China.
I’d imagine that the Taishang figure that voting this time (unlike 08 and 12) is pointless because HHC/KMT has no chance of winning. And if their favored side has no chance, then why waste the time and money of flying back to Taiwan. If HHC managed to pull within a few points of TIW, I wonder if it would impact the Taishang’s decisions.
Right, I believe that’s what everybody looks at too, across time and geography.
Hey don’t be too hard on yourself. We’re not saying you’re a traitor or anything like that. Not trying to pressure you to make choices that you don’t want.
If I have to choose between China and Japan, I’d choose to merge sovereignty with Japan, because spiritually and culturally I feel more at home in Japan than in China. Personally I’m quite confident I can achieve fluency in Japanese in 1 to 2 years at this age.[/quote]
Understood and thanks. As an American I don’t really feel like a “traitor” when discussing my views on Taiwan since it isn’t my home country, but I do certainly feel some anguish and conflict at times as I do think Taiwan as my ancestral homeland. I appreciate the ardent dialogue on Forumosa and like being able to sincerely discuss disagreements. Aside from consumer economic ones, I face few “choices” on this issue - it is matter of academic and personal interest to me rather than one of direct consequence (unlike for many people here).
I have family roots in Japan; my dad was born in Tokyo, my grandma was from Fukuoka and I have other relatives I know of in Osaka, Yokohama, and Tokyo. I appreciate Japan’s democracy and liberty and would probably have an easier time living there, but I can’t shake the feeling based on certain interactions with Japanese people (not realizing that my wife and I can both understand a little Japanese and are eavesdropping) that some of them are really bigoted towards and look down on other Asian and non-Japanese people while simultaneously is idolizing Western/white people. I know there is probably some similar interplay at work in China, but it has impacted me less (probably because I’m mostly Han and my family has some near roots in Henan and Guangdong too). I certainly feel more Chinese than Japanese (but American and Taiwanese above either).
Right, I believe that’s what everybody looks at too, across time and geography.
Hey don’t be too hard on yourself. We’re not saying you’re a traitor or anything like that. Not trying to pressure you to make choices that you don’t want.
If I have to choose between China and Japan, I’d choose to merge sovereignty with Japan, because spiritually and culturally I feel more at home in Japan than in China. Personally I’m quite confident I can achieve fluency in Japanese in 1 to 2 years at this age.[/quote]
Understood and thanks. As an American I don’t really feel like a “traitor” when discussing my views on Taiwan since it isn’t my home country, but I do certainly feel some anguish and conflict at times as I do think Taiwan as my ancestral homeland. I appreciate the ardent dialogue on Forumosa and like being able to sincerely discuss disagreements. Aside from consumer economic ones, I face few “choices” on this issue - it is matter of academic and personal interest to me rather than one of direct consequence (unlike for many people here).
I have family roots in Japan; my dad was born in Tokyo, my grandma was from Fukuoka and I have other relatives I know of in Osaka, Yokohama, and Tokyo. I appreciate Japan’s democracy and liberty and would probably have an easier time living there, but I can’t shake the feeling based on certain interactions with Japanese people (not realizing that my wife and I can both understand a little Japanese and are eavesdropping) that some of them are really bigoted towards and look down on other Asian and non-Japanese people while simultaneously is idolizing Western/white people. I know there is probably some similar interplay at work in China, but it has impacted me less (probably because I’m mostly Han and my family has some near roots in Henan and Guangdong too). I certainly feel more Chinese than Japanese (but American and Taiwanese above either).[/quote]
I think your ambivalance is not uncommon among many 2nd-gen immigrant ABCs, especially those who had grandparent(s)/parent(s) in the 49’-mainlanders category. (ie. Family left China in 1949, came to Taiwan, and the emigrate to US/Canada/etc.) The idea of Taiwan Independence generally causes them great pain because it might require them to redefine the meaning of their ties to Taiwan or question their Taiwan identity in relation to their Chinese identity.
[edit: Eddie Huang of “Vice’s Fresh ofF the Boat” had a couple of episodes that dedicated a big chunk to this identity issue. Very interesting and accurate.]
A French scholar in Taiwan called Stéphane Corcuff also studied it. You can find his video by you-tubing his name.
Many 2nd gen. immigrant to Taiwan (who grew up in Taiwan but chose to return to live a life in China) also face this issue.
When I spoke of zeitgeist, I did not intend to discount these personal stories and feelings. However at the end of the day these are still transient and minority part of Taiwan’s overall trajectory though.
[quote=“sofun”]
I think your ambivalance is not uncommon among many 2nd-gen immigrant ABCs, [/quote]
Sofun, why do you refer to him as an ABC when he calls himself American? The term ABC is just wrongly applied in 99% of cases. It means that you are truly Chinese (in terms of citizenship, national identity, etc) but just happened to be born in the US out of circumstance, like if your parents gave birth to you there but then took you back to ‘China’ immediately afterward. Leaving aside the issue of whether you think Taiwan is ‘China’ as I know many don’t. But for 2nd gen immigrants, they are clearly American. Or ‘Chinese-American’. Chinese by ethnicity but American by nationality/citizenship. Just like ‘Italian-American’, ‘Irish-American’ or whatever it may be. Have you called such people “American born Italians” or “American born Irish”? Conversely, Boris Johnson, mayor of London, is an American born Englishman because he just happened to be born in the US but in no way does not make him “American”.
Yes we know that he’s American. “ABC” is not derogatory and not related to citizenship. It’s just a colloquial term with very loose definition that’s been a part of Taiwanese vocabulary (or vernacular). You could be born in Australia, pro-Taiwan and still be referred to as “ABC.”
Sorry for the confusion.
[quote=“so fun”] I think your ambivalance is not uncommon among many 2nd-gen immigrant ABCs, especially those who had grandparent(s)/parent(s) in the 49’-mainlanders category. (ie. Family left China in 1949, came to Taiwan, and the emigrate to US/Canada/etc.) The idea of Taiwan Independence generally causes them great pain because it might require them to redefine the meaning of their ties to Taiwan or question their Taiwan identity in relation to their Chinese identity.
[edit: Eddie Huang of “Vice’s Fresh ofF the Boat” had a couple of episodes that dedicated a big chunk to this identity issue. Very interesting and accurate.]
A French scholar in Taiwan called Stéphane Corcuff also studied it. You can find his video by you-tubing his name.
Many 2nd gen. immigrant to Taiwan (who grew up in Taiwan but chose to return to live a life in China) also face this issue.
When I spoke of zeitgeist, I did not intend to discount these personal stories and feelings. However at the end of the day these are still transient and minority part of Taiwan’s overall trajectory though.[/quote]
While my family doesn’t fit the model, I certainly understand your comments about the ambivalence of certain of the post-49 families in the U.S. It wasn’t until pretty recently that I started meeting people from WSR families in the U.S. who identified as “Taiwanese.” I remember from my youth in the 70s-90s that anyone I met from WSR families in the U.S. would adamantly declare their “Chineseness” and disclaim any Taiwan connection and identity.
Even though the family is part WSR and part Japanese, my parents identify as Taiwanese and they came to the U.S. in the 60s as part of the first large generation of Taiwanese grad students and exiles/blacklisted Taiwanese. Some were quite radicals and vehemently Taiwanese and helped build, support and fund many Taiwanese organizations in America, taught their children Hoklo and/or Hakka from the cradle, and never identify as Chinese other than in the broadest and loosest senses. This group of pro TI immigrants came over to the U.S. from Taiwan concurrently with the post 49 crowd but have drastically different views.
Yes we know that he’s American. “ABC” is not derogatory and not related to citizenship. It’s just a colloquial term with very loose definition that’s been a part of Taiwanese vocabulary (or vernacular). You could be born in Australia, pro-Taiwan and still be referred to as “ABC.”
Sorry for the confusion.[/quote]
Yes, I agree with so fun that the actual meaning of ABC is much broader than its literal meaning. What began as a funny acronym is now just a fast way to refer to a person of Asian ancestry who is essentially “Western” in terms of culture, language and viewpoint. Neither the A nor the B nor the C have to actually be true . . . I’ve heard Asian Americans of a non-ethnic-Chinese origin use the term.
I understand fanlangzhe’s point about the unfortunate “essentialism” in the term as it does linguistically place Chineseness at the core of the identity. In my experience, Asian Americans, Taiwanese Americans and Chinese Americans don’t use the word as such; we just mean “(mostly) non-immigrant X-nese American.” Maybe it is a little akin to Western reactions to Chinese speakers using “waiguoren/laowai” to refer to Americans as “foreigners” in America . . . the actual meaning of such term (non-ethnically Chinese person; maybe even just white people) is not the same as the literal meaning (although I agree that Chinese speakers really shouldn’t use the term in that way).
In fairness to them, though, why exactly were they suspended? I haven’t seen anyone produce a legitimate reason. It sucks that their jobs and lives are being impacted for having the “wrong” political leanings.
