Okay, this is a real question, serious, and I’d like some serious answers.
Buddhists believe in re-incarnation, right? Re-incarnation meaning that after death, the person who lived in the body–the essence of who the person was–personality? Spirit? Mind?–is reborn into another body, could be another person, could be an ant or bicen, or flower, depending on karma earned in the last life cycle–right? I’m not completely sure how that’s supposed to work.
But anyway, here’s the meat of my curiosity–if people are re-incarnated, who do Buddhists pray to when they worship their ancestors? Their ancestors should be walking around sogo, or selling veggies in the street market, or something–right? I was thinking last night how these two practices/beliefs seem to conflict.
I mean, I can understand ancester homage–kind of making sure we don’t forget where we come from and having respect for those who’s lives lead to ours–but is that all it really is? For some people, I know it’s not. They really believe that their ancestors guide their lives and approve or not, and help or not when needed. When those people who believe like that are Buddhist, I don’t understand what they really think or believe.
Buddhists don’t do ancestor veneration (it’s not really worship) because they’re Buddhist, they do it because they’re Chinese.
Keep in mind that you’re dealing with a mix of Buddhism and Chinese folk religion. Ancestor worship is not part of Buddhism.
However, Buddhism is not incompatible with ancestor worship. Reincarnation does not necessarily happen at the moment of death. Ancestors may linger on, holding onto their identities for a long time before returning to the cycle of causality and eventually being reborn.
Great point and very true! Still, doesn’t it seem to conflict?
RDO, you and I posted at the same time. So, ancesters can wait around a while before being reborn? Okay. Where are they while the wait? Do they have a choice in waiting or immediate rebirth?
Like I said, Buddhism doesn’t actually teach ancestor worship. It’s just compatible. Just as there are different denominations of Christianity, there are different flavors of Buddhism.
In most pure Buddhist traditions, there is no soul at all. A person’s actions and belief in self-identity in this life causes a chain of events leading to an eventual rebirth. Soul and individual identity are an illusion. So, the idea of a soul lasting after death and later on returning, the whole transmigration concept, would not work for them.
However, Buddhism is an inclusive philosophy. So, when it was spread to China, the idea of there being some sort of soul was not contested. Instead it was Sinocized. Essentially, it allowed the continued practice of ancestor worship while incorporating Buddhist beliefs. Essentially, it allowed the Chinese concepts of Hell and tian to continue pretty much unchanged with a bit of apologetics to combine the two.
I don’t think there’s a specific “official” answer, but I’d say the soul hangs out in “hell” (just the Chinese underworld— doesn’t imply you were evil) for a significant period of time. Several generations, to be sure.
[quote=“Maoman”]Buddhists don’t do ancestor veneration (it’s not really worship) because they’re Buddhist, they do it because they’re Chinese.[/quote]That sounds about right to me.
I don’t know much about Chinese Buddhism, but I have the impression that real Chinese Buddhists (at least those who have done some study) rather look down on ancestor worship/veneration, and if they do it it’s from a sense of family duty rather than religious conviction. I might be wrong though.
From a Tibetan Buddhist point of view, ancestor worship as such is pointless. You certainly pray for people who have passed away, but you don’t believe that they can offer you any particular blessings (unless they’ve reached a very high level of spiritual attainment). I can’t quite see how any other viewpoint would work in any coherent Buddhist philosophical system, but again I may be wrong.
The Chinese folk religion blends together elements from several religions whose tenets are not always compatible. For most Taiwanese, Buddhist elements are not so prominent. Some of them call themselves Buddhists, and many home altars feature Guanyin bodhisattva as the central figure, but I would say less than 10 percent have any identification with the Three Jewels or other elements of world Buddhism. (Most would think first of vegetarianism.)
Once I asked my in-laws what they would write down as the name of their religion, in case they had to fill out some form that asked that. One said “No religion.” My mother-in-law said she didn’t know. Her husband answered “Buddhist.” Another of their kids (who had studied anthropology) said “…Taoism?” To which her mother spat “Pi…!” (“Bullshit!”) “We’re Buddhists!” I suppose she thought the opinion of the paterfamilias ought to have been decisive, though my little nephew–a toddler–offered “Taiwan religion!” (an answer I like very much).
Oh yeah, they all practice the same religion. I suppose that when China takes over, they’ll lament the confusion and try to straighten them out. An anthropologist might be tempted to describe whatever they do as another, heretofore-underrecognized form of Buddhism. Or atheism (!). Or whatever. In scholarly literature, some speak of the “Chinese folk religion” or some variant, while others include all this (even Guanyin?) under the rubric of “Taoism,” a term which would otherwise be reserved for the more “elite” element consisting of religious professionals and organized (non-Buddhist) temple worship.
So, what happens after you die? Well there seem to exist semi-divine ancestors who protect their descendents, and receive worship through the family altar. That seems to be the most important focus of their religion. It’s a patrilineal system, of course, so we are only speaking of the male line of ancestors. These blur seamlessly into the category of gods, into whose ranks they may be promoted, but my in-laws do not seem terribly interested in gods (except occasionally when they want something). Ghosts are imagined to be men who die without sons, or who die violent deaths or something. So these are two alternative afterlife destinations. I don’t think reincarnation figures into it at all, though the relatively Buddhist 10 % might have figured out a way to integrate that too.
Thank God we have our Western religions which, as is widely known, make perfect sense. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Amen. +
I think that that actually counts as a rebirth. AFAIK there are 6 levels of reincarnation - hell, hungry ghosts, animals, human, semi-god and gods.
The six realms (sometimes five, lumping two kinds of gods together) are a Buddhist doctrine. The Tibetans have this too.