Bush torture policy goal was false confessions, not intel

Politics International Politics
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How many nations routinely break such “laws” each and every day? Seems that I read about “torture” in Germany, France and other nations when it comes to illegal immigrants. Let’s not even talk about real torture in nations like Myanmar, North Korea, Iran… but it is the US and its actions that always get our paragons of moral rectitude, the Canadian English teacher, in a tizzy…[/quote]

Oh, now you are making fanciful claims about my profession (wrong as usual).

How many nations break the law? No idea. I know we are talking about the Bush admin’s breaking of the law in a country that prides itself as being based on the rule of the law and a rational limit to exectuive power. I ask you again, what do you think should be done? Crimes were committed and a cover up made?

People were tortured. If you don’t understand why that statement in itself carries a great load then you are morally retarded.

In addition, the big deal includes the claim that the exectutive can imprison anyone (US citizens included) without charge, and indefintitely, and torture them, at the whim of the presindent. Why don’t you sto being such a mincer of words and logic and addess this point. Do you want aN executive with the power to crush your children’s testicles?

[quote]
Some people were roughed up but when they were the US intelligence went to such great efforts to ensure that even the damned wall was soft and that it merely made a good slapping sound to affect the interogatees psychologically rather than physically. You have three people being waterboarded admittedly for quite a few times. You have a caterpillar being put in someone’s cell. You have snarling dogs barking in their face. You have them put in uncomfortable positions for hours at a time or subjected to loud music or culturally insensitive situations. What you do not have is any bones being broken, any limbs being cut off, any eyes being gouged out, any electrical shocks being given to the genitals, any starvation (they have gained 20 lbs on average), and if anything overly sensitive treatment regarding their culture and religion. Guards who do not put plastic gloves on when handling the Koran are “breaking the law” but inmates who rip up the Koran to block the toilet are… what? acting out? which is understandable because of the rough treatment that they have been accorded? [/quote]

You’re lying or gossly misinformed. Limbs were broken, wounds left to fester, and dozens of deaths occured.

[quote]Again, though, I do not support the torture simply because it appears not to work or deliver anything of value.
Now, the Bush administration has officials who claim that it has or did in the case of the three waterboarded. We have not seen that yet so I am still not decided on this. Given, therefore, that this rough treatment does not deliver anything, I am on record as being against it. [/quote]

Your opposition is craven. You are on recod saying you don’t care and you will hold no one accountable.

[quote]
What I will not tolerate, however, is the bleating of sheep who claim to be outraged by such actions all the while living under the protection accorded by the forces that are attempting desperately to find a balance in confronting a new enemy with new tactics. [/quote][/quote]

You really think such a transparantly sefl-serving statement carries any weigh with me? Let me repeat, opposition to the torture program began in the military. It continues with all decent and rational people who don’t want torture used and who rightfully do not want an executive with the power to break the law.

At the very least self-interest should tell you that exectutive power should not be unlimited.

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:laughing: :laughing: Yeah, and don’t mention “Sarah the Canadian” in front of these teachers. Gets them very angry indeed. :laughing:

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You seem to be fighting your own battles. I said I do not support torture. BUT I certainly am not tossing and turning at night losing sleep over any roughing up of these terrorists. I think that the “interest” in these tortures is a bit precious. Anyway, it is a big deal to you… not to me. I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

Given that the second Bush administration had already backed away from new interrogation policies that were implemented in the fearful immediate aftermath of 911, and given that Obama is not really going to close Guantanamo or end the interrogation methods and wiretapping in their entirety, then I am going to have to assume that there is a reason why some of this is being kept in place though I certainly had expected Obama to stand by his word and shut all of this down. Anyway, treaties are constantly being renegotiated and laws changed. The US and its intelligence and military were facing new threats and they did not know how to react. In some cases, they overreacted… they have my sympathy… it was a difficult time and I, for one, would not want to have been placed in that kind of a position. I still wouldn’t.

So? why don’t you spend more time actively soliciting the Canadian government, your government to take some of these prisoners so that they no longer have to suffer at the hands of the evil Americans?

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[quote=“dantesolieri”]
So? why don’t you spend more time actively soliciting the Canadian government, your government to take some of these prisoners so that they no longer have to suffer at the hands of the evil Americans?[/quote]

Because most of these Canadian English teachers have zero political capital within the ruling party in Canada. Unless the Federal NDP or Green Party ever gets in (about as much chance of that happening as the dead porn star John C. Holmes has of becoming Pope in the Vatican), these backpackers will always be on the outside protesting and making noise. What was the old saying that Democrat Speaker Sam Rayburn used to say? Any jackass can tear down an outhouse, but it takes a carpenter to build one. :laughing: :laughing:

I’d actuall prefer the Americans to take care of these prisoners. We’ve received so many of the draft dodgers and other filth (usually fleeing from their patriotic duty) from the Civil War onwards, it would be nice for them to keep the people they received from Canada in G-Bay.

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[quote]Because most of these Canadian English teachers have zero political capital within the ruling party in Canada. Unless the Federal NDP or Green Party ever gets in (about as much chance of that happening as the dead porn star John C. Holmes has of becoming Pope in the Vatican), these backpackers will always be on the outside protesting and making noise. What was the old saying that Democrat Speaker Sam Rayburn used to say? Any jackass can tear down an outhouse, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

I’d actuall prefer the Americans to take care of these prisoners. We’ve received so many of the draft dodgers and other filth (usually fleeing from their patriotic duty) from the Civil War onwards, it would be nice for them to keep the people they received from Canada.[/quote]

You do have an amusing way of putting things. I just want to be clear here though that I do sympathize with those who have called to carpet these individuals and these actions. Most of this harsh interrogation seems to have generated little to nothing of use so I am glad that it is over and done with BUT to hear the endless vilifying of the US government and its forces, the very people who keep the “concerned” safe from the actions of these terrorists who want to MAXIMIZE civilian casualties is beyond the pale for me. That is where I part company with the “professionally and perpetually outraged.” Know what I mean?

46

The US doesn’t torture.
The US does torture but it was limited.
No wait, it really wasn’t torture.
Okay, it was but I don’t care.
Oh, I do care, but not that much.
Oh, no wait, I really oppose torture, but I won’t hold anyone accountable.
And who are you to criticize America.
Backpacking English flunkie.

Oh, and thanks to the Ted McGingley of Forumosa for entering the fray.

This thread has now officially jumped the shark. :laughing:

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I find Cheney’s argument - that waterboarding was justified because it produced useful information - particularly amusing.

Torture away then!

48

I keep hearing Chewbacca roaring inside my head. It’s like torture.

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[quote=“Thelonlieste”]I find Cheney’s argument - that waterboarding was justified because it produced useful information - particularly amusing.

Torture away then![/quote]

The tough interrogations of suspected Al-Qaeda militants saved perhaps hundreds of thousands of US lives. I wonder if Obama will declassify two memos that show that the CIA had thwarted acts of terrorism thanks to information gleaned from the interrogations.

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Claiming that the Bush admin kept us safe with torture these past 8 years is akin to saying that they kept us prosperous with easy credit.

51

Given the “torture” involved… I would have to say it is very minimal or at the low end of the value chain. IF Cheney is right, then what president would not have made the same decision? Again, for the people involved, I really do not care if they were roughed up a bit. It is laughable when the “abuses” committed against them are compared with what they could have expected from the hands of their own “brethren.”

52

That’s right, Dante completely missed the Renaissance too!

HG

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Well, I heard an awful lot about the Bush fascist takeover of the US government and its institutions and yet… we had an election and we have a complete change of government with the rising Republicans falling like a bad souffle. I suspect that the same hyperbole is also present in discussions of “torture” and that is very tiresome. It seems to be a Canadian sport, criticizing the Americans. IF they truly are so interested in the welfare of the poor torture victims, I suggest that we send as many as they can take/want.

It calls to mind Zhou Enlai’s brilliant putdown of Jimmy Carter and his “concern” for Chinese immigrants. He simply asked: how many million do you want? Naturally, that shut up Carter and exposed the US “concern” for the Chinese as just so much mouthings of politically correct kant. I suspect that the “concern” for US “torture victims” is much of the same “high-minded” nonsense.

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Zhou Enlai is your hero now. That fits.

55

Well, since we are all obvious torture-happy Americans, the only thing that I can say in response is that this plastic bag would “fit” nicely over your head.

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[quote=“dantesolieri”]Well, I heard an awful lot about the Bush fascist takeover of the US government and its institutions and yet… we had an election and we have a complete change of government with the rising Republicans falling like a bad souffle. I suspect that the same hyperbole is also present in discussions of “torture” and that is very tiresome. It seems to be a Canadian sport, criticizing the Americans. IF they truly are so interested in the welfare of the poor torture victims, I suggest that we send as many as they can take/want.

It calls to mind Zhou Enlai’s brilliant putdown of Jimmy Carter and his “concern” for Chinese immigrants. He simply asked: how many million do you want? Naturally, that shut up Carter and exposed the US “concern” for the Chinese as just so much mouthings of politically correct kant. I suspect that the “concern” for US “torture victims” is much of the same “high-minded” nonsense.[/quote]

Rule of law. Limited executive powers. Holding everyone accountable for their crimes, the meek and the mighty. Self-interest too unless you don’t mind the thought of you and your loved ones testicles being in the hands of the US gov.

Really, a no brainer, even without the moral dimension.

57

Gee for all its wanton torture, the US seems to be doing okay with regard to rule of law. If there were any problem, it seems to be linked to economic and financial rather than human rights, no?

What exactly is the executive branch getting away with? and why is Obama continuing many of the same policies of the very government administration that he was so keen to criticize? and given that Nancy Pelosi seems to have been advised of these measures, looks like Congress acquiesced, no? to Bush’s terrible torture trial?

Given the high level of scrutiny on this, I would suggest that the very same has occurred and is occurring.

Your hyperbole bores me. Three individuals were waterboarded. They appear to have given very valuable information that saved hundreds or thousands of lives according to Cheney. Maybe true. Maybe not, but to be morally in a position where you can save that many people, reduces your black white argument to a heap of ashes. The rest… gee… excessive weight gain… tell Oprah!

Furthermore, you can talk about all the laws that you want but if anyone had the chance to save hundreds of lives for roughing up a terrorist or two, I think that they would do it. I would argue to not do it would be even more morally reprehensible. Where we actually agree (and you keep ignoring this) is that I do not support torture because, to date, I have not seen it proved that it is in fact effective. Cheney says it was; Cheney said a lot of things… Let’s see what history says. Where we part company is in your sanctimonious holier than thou reverence for laws that are broken to a far greater extent by numerous nations throughout the world. I suggest that your “concern” for the adherence to these laws is more Canadian inferiority/resentment against the US manifesting itself once again. Get a life. What exactly have US troops and intelligence agents done that your Canadian “peacekeepers” in Bosnia and Somalia could not trump overnight with the shocking list of “unauthorized” abuse, torture and rape?

Ah but that is where and why we do part company. You want to focus narrowly on these “laws” when I would argue that the moral dimension encompasses something far greater… innocent lives… that you would willingly sacrifice or at least shrug off as a price worth paying… This is to me a no brainer… but…

58

Um, Muzha Man isn’t Canadian. He’s American as apple pie.

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Really? Gosh… He really does come off as a whinging Canadian. Sounds like a broken record… but a fitting accompaniment to all the broken laws that the US government leaves in its trail. The travesty!

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dante, unless you are pushing for a bi-partisan commision to investigate this matter to the fullest your words are hollow. You don’t know that any lives were saved, or that the same intelligence could not have been gotten by other means, and believing the word of the people responsible for the torture is not an acceptable position.