Really? Gosh… He really does come off as a whinging Canadian. Sounds like a broken record… but a fitting accompaniment to all the broken laws that the US government leaves in its trail. The travesty![/quote]
No, dante, I am Candian. Please explain again how this is a word of opprobrium? 
As for the broken record, yes, this message has to be repeated ad nauseum because every few months there are new liars and fools to argue the disingenuous position you have taken. 
Muzhaman:
I knew you were Canadian. I could just smell the sanctimonious solicitous concern. Well, ante up. How many terrorists from Guantanamo do you want your government to take? 50? 100? think of how you will be protecting them from the evil trepidations of the US government. You do distinguish, however, between Obama and Bush at least? and even between Bush’s first term and second? or is it all just so much of the same old same old? Anyway, do continue to post… I am enjoying this…
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
No, dante, I am Candian. [/quote]
Oh dear. I believe I’ve had a senior moment – I was sure you were American, Calvin.
I guess I was wrong true. What is a Candian?
[quote=“dantesolieri”]Muzhaman:
I knew you were Canadian. I could just smell the sanctimonious solicitous concern. Well, ante up. How many terrorists from Guantanamo do you want your government to take? 50? 100? think of how you will be protecting them from the evil trepidations of the US government. You do distinguish, however, between Obama and Bush at least? and even between Bush’s first term and second? or is it all just so much of the same old same old? Anyway, do continue to post… I am enjoying this…[/quote]
Dear dante,
It’s been wonderfully cathartic for this old canuck to feel superior to you this last month but alas I have work to do. Interviewing some intelligent people tomorrow and actually need to prepare myself for informed, rational answers to my questions.
Toodle pip, xxxoxxoo
MM the Canadian
[quote=“sandman”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
No, dante, I am Candian. [/quote]
Oh dear. I believe I’ve had a senior moment – I was sure you were American, Calvin.[/quote]
Sorry, Dereck, I’m Australian as I said above. You’re thinking of my wife. She’s the South African.
[quote=“dantesolieri”]Muzhaman:
I knew you were Canadian. I could just smell the sanctimonious solicitous concern. Well, ante up. How many terrorists from Guantanamo do you want your government to take? 50? 100? think of how you will be protecting them from the evil trepidations of the US government. You do distinguish, however, between Obama and Bush at least? and even between Bush’s first term and second? or is it all just so much of the same old same old? Anyway, do continue to post… I am enjoying this…[/quote]
How does that make any sense? Because the Canadian government doesn’t take Guantanamo prisoners, Canadians aren’t sincere in denouncing torture? Because Carter wouldn’t accept millions of Chinese peasants into the US, he is not sincere about asking for more humanitarian consideration for them? Did Zhuo Enlai have any business telling Jimmy Carter anything about humanitarianism?
I respect your opinion. I don’t understand it. I don’t understand how you can act like you somehow scored any points in this debate. I guess in your mind you are a master debater.
No, they are VERY sincere in denouncing torture. They simply cannot be bothered to act to do anything about it. I mean Canada has offered asylum to various Hamas and Hezbollah figures to show its “concern” for these individuals and their causes. What suddenly is different now? They are individuals suffering US oppression… Canada as a bastion of freedom and human rights protection should offer at least 10, 20 maybe even 30 asylum as well, no? If not, why?
You are missing the point. Zhou Enlai understood that Carter’s demands for more relaxed immigration were a posture. He fully understood that Carter did not really want China to relax its immigration restrictions and so he hit the ball back into his court. The fact that Carter immediately shut up merely underscored the fact that the US did not really want to take any of these immigrants but was just trying to score cheap political points. This is similar to demanding that the Chinese stop engaging in currency manipulation. Do we really want the yuan to strengthen? really? Often, this is stated to provide a cheap excuse to curry favor with interest groups back home.
Arguably, we can see the same thing happening in Europe, Australia, Canada and other countries. The leaders there speak truth to power by criticizing the US while accepting its protection and defense and taking advantage of its power and intelligence efforts. Secretly, its forces cooperate with the US in renditions and other abuses of power and the Geneva Convention. Yet, political leaders there fully understand the outraged resentment of the Muzhamans hence their empty rhetoric. Ask them to actually do something about it… well, then, things become awfully silent don’t they?
You score points with me for at least making the effort. I applaud you for at least trying to understand where I am coming from and that is much appreciated.
No comment to that remark. I think that you are just ending with a cheap shot. If it makes you feel better… okay then…
I guess that I should be thrilled and gratified that at least you have a job. Congratulations!
Good news. I will look forward to improved communication with you following your efforts.
[quote]Toodle pip, xxxoxxoo
MM the Canadian[/quote]
Dante, World Citizen
You are missing the point. Zhou Enlai understood that Carter’s demands for more relaxed immigration were a posture. He fully understood that Carter did not really want China to relax its immigration restrictions and so he hit the ball back into his court. The fact that Carter immediately shut up merely underscored the fact that the US did not really want to take any of these immigrants but was just trying to score cheap political points.[/quote]
I also know better than to believe this cockamamie story.
How many did Canada capture? None, I think.
The US is holding prisoners in Guantanamo, and should bring them to trial. If found guilty, appropriate sentences should apply (e.g. incarceration). If found not guilty, they should be released.
That’s how justice works.
How many Canadian “soldiers” do you have “fighting” around the world that would enable you to “capture” anyone? The question you should ask is whether your government supported the effort in Afghanistan? but despite that has failed to send sufficient forces? whether it now supports the stabilization of Iraq but fails to send forces? recognizes the danger of the Somali pirates but (sing along with me now) fails to send forces… and then even when you do catch someone (oh what are the odds of that happening again!) even release Somalian pirates that your ships have chased to shore because you do not have a “mandate” to arrest them? recognizes the dangers of terrorism but cooperates only clandestinely with renditions and other efforts while publicy denouncing them as a travesty against justice. Of course, with the track record of Canadian soldiers in Somalia and Bosnia, I guess I would want to distract world attention by pointing elsewhere. Quite the few little abu Ghraibs ourselves, eh?
[quote]The US is holding prisoners in Guantanamo, and should bring them to trial. If found guilty, appropriate sentences should apply (e.g. incarceration). If found not guilty, they should be released.
That’s how justice works.[/quote]
Why do you care so much about US justice? Is this an issue for you personally or even for your nationals? Apparently, the thought of Israeli injustice is enough for you to grant asylum to all manner of Hamas and Hizbollah representatives and their families. It was in the case of the Tiananmen Square, it also was for Russians and Eastern Europeans during the Soviet days… Why not do the same in this case? Either your government truly believes that these individuals are innocent and that a travesty of justice is taking place or (it really does not) and which do you believe? I suspect the latter, which is why we occasionally hear bleating but no real action is taken (oh what a surprise). The US government has said it will free these individuals to any takers. Nay, it has even pressured governments to take them… and the Canadian action? (contradiction in terms)? nothing to my knowledge…
I tell you what… let’s pretend that I am a US citizen and you are a Canadian government official. You can publicy criticize me for my nation’s efforts and actions, and then once you have gotten that out of your system, we can go have a beer and tell a few terrorist jokes. Whadya say? You will feel good about yourself and that is important. I realize that you have feelings that need to be validated… there there now… have a little cry and you will feel better… that’s a good girl…
I don’t think Chris is Canadian. Not that it matters. You are in your own reality.
Ah… finally, you begin to see… the light…
Ah… finally, you begin to see… the light…[/quote]
Yeah. Once you start making up what other people are thinking, you can win a lot of arguments.
I’m pretty certain that my government initiated the effort in Afghanistan.
Why do you care so much about US justice? [/quote]
For one thing, because I’m an American.
For another thing, because I care about justice.
Ah… finally, you begin to see… the light…[/quote]
I would add that when you’ve gone to all the trouble of attending three years of law school but still seem to have trouble grasping the fundamentals of due process that nothing much matters from that point on.
I would also add that if you’re so convinced they’re terrorists then why would you be so anxious to let them go? Especially after pissing them off so good? Isn’t that just asking for trouble?
I have already stated that I do not support torture. The main reason is that I believe that it yields very little in usable intelligence.
I have also stated that I have great sympathy for our national leaders as they struggled to find a balance to keep America safe while still maintaining the principles upon which we have founded our nation.
I have also stated that I have little to no sympathy for terrorists.
I have also stated that I do not believe that terrorists deserve any protections whatsoever given that they fight out of uniform, that they deliberately hide in civilian sites (hospitals, mosques, schools) and seek to maximize civilian deaths. I realize that MY views are not those of my nation which has ratified the Geneva Convention. I also laugh at the suggestion that our “protection” and “humane treatment” of terrorists leads to a similar kind regard when our forces, whether military, intelligence or civilian are captured.
I have also stated my complete and utter contempt for most of the posters and their precious “concerns” regarding these matters. They snipe while hiding behind the apron strings of the powerful US, which is forced to make tradeoffs to protect itself and a spillover effect of this is that nations whose citizens are chief among the grousers about the US and its actions are those that benefit most directly and indirectly.
Ultimately, however, I note with amusement that all the shrill squeaking about this has led and will lead to nothing. So much chirping for nothing… I would laugh but that would be rude… and I do recognize the validity of the argument in theory while I have contempt for those who pretend to believe that this is an easy decision that the US should have had absolutely no difficulty in following. Had there been another major attack on the scale of 911? What then? an endless stream of criticism of Bush officials for their wishy washy approach to dealing with terror? I mean we had a major investigation into the Bush team for not predicting and dealing with 911. What makes you think that yet another attack would have not raised the criticism level to a fever pitch. We cannot expect perfection of our leaders. We must watch vigilantly so that they do not abuse their powers, but we must also recognize that THEY are taking great responsiblity for us and our safety. To treat this delicate balance with sneering and without giving them the same respect that we expect for our own views and concerns is juvenile to say the least.
My primary reason for opposing torture is that it’s barbaric: it is not something engaged in by civilized, rational or ethical folk.
Me too, with the caveat that, in the quest for greater security, no rights or freedoms should ever be compromised.
I am with you here, 100%
Terrorists, yes. But terrorist suspects?
A suspect is someone who the authorities think may have perpetrated a crime. It takes a trial to determine guilt. Until then, he’s just a suspect, and may well be an innocent person.
Concerns, such as basic human rights? The rule of law? The possible incarceration of innocent people? Do you consider these trivial concerns worthy of ridicule?
Tradeoffs, like what? Having to break the law or compromise on long-held principles of liberty?
If a proposed security measure is illegal or unconstitutional, it must not be implemented. It’s not a difficult concept. There are plenty of other legal measures that can be pursued, which do not compromise our freedom.
If you know what’s good for you you’d be directing your ‘complete and utter contempt’ at your alma mater instead for defrauding you. If you ever decide to sue to get your tuition back I’m available as a material witness as I could testify knowledgeably about your inability to distinguish between the rules of evidence and hearsay in legal proceedings.