I tend to use elder when decribing family - “She’s my elder sister” I’m under the impression that it is more “formal” to use, but like “whom” it is falling out of our spoken language. Mmmmm. Am I right?
Talking about family. We teach:
“How many people are there in your family?”
“There are four people in my family.”
“Who are they?”
“They are my mother ,father,sister and me.”
Surely, to be correct it should be I not me?
However, I asked a linguistics student recently and she could not give me a definitive answer. In reality I often use “me” when I perhaps should use “I”, is it just laziness on my part? If it is correct to use me is this a difference between American English and British English?
Not sure about elder and older, but the “I” and “me” question can be solved by removing the other people in the sentence (bracket them and look at the base of the sentence) to make it clearer. For example:
(John and) I will go to the shop.
You wouldn’t say: (John and) me will go to the shop.
Will you come with (John and) I? (incorrect)
Will you come with (John and) me? (correct)
“They are my mother ,father,sister and me.” …if you remove the other family members, and change the pronoun / verb appropriately, it comes out as:
The other one I think should be “me” because it’s the object. You would say “That is me” not “That is I”[/quote]
BFM is right. It should be “me”. Unfortunately snobbery, rather than correct usage has let to confusion. People just assume that I (especially “My sister and I”) must ALWAYS be the more “correct” answer, when in fact it is not.
The easy way to remember is to just remove “My sister and” to decide if it should be “me” or “I”.
[quote=“Indiana”]You wouldn’t say: (John and) me will go to the shop. [/quote]Some people would say that, but it is incorrect. This is often a source of confusion.
(quote from link) If age alone is to be expressed, one should use older or elderly rather than elder:…that’s what I was looking for!
Irishstu, as a native speaker I’ve been guilty of these kids of crimes but it is only when you question yourself that you realise how much grammar you take for granted!
Here’s another one about pronounciation. The/Theee (eees for emphasis)
Theee apple
Theee orange
Theee elephant
Are there any instances, or specific words, when you do not pronounce “Theee” followed by a vowel? Theee elephant sounds so strange. Again, perhaps it its due to laziness that I’ve slipped into the short “The” sound (something I’ve cured at work, at least)
[quote=“On pages 434-5 in Practical English Usage, Michael Swan”] In informal English, we use object forms not only as the objects of verbs and prepositions, but also in most other cases where the words do not come before verbs as their subjects. Object forms are common, for example, in one word answers and after be. ‘Who said that?’ ‘(It was) him’ ‘Who’s that?’ ‘(It’s) me.’
In a more formal style, we often prefer to use the subject form + verb where possible.
[i]‘Who said that?’ ‘He did.’ (BUT NOT ‘He.’)
It is possible to use the subject form after be, but this is extremely formal, and is usually considered over-correct (especially in British English). It is I. It was he.
Object forms are sometimes used in co-ordinated subjects with and in informal speech; this is considered incorrect in more formal usage. John and me are going skiing this weekend.
(More correct: John and I…)[/quote]
When asked over the phone if ImaniOU is home, I answer, “This is she.” But that’s just I.
You can say “thee” or “the”. Doesn’t matter. “Thee” is easier to use before a vowel because there’s no break in speaking and it’s like, or is, a “y” in between. One example of where it’s easier to say “the” before a vowel is “the one” where a “w” sound can be, or is, used between the two words.
A confusion of the usage of “I” and “me” at the end of a sentence exists because we like to avoid being redundant. We want to omit verbs because it’s obvious that they can be implied. For example, “He is stronger than I.” It is incorrect to say, “He is stronger than me.”
[quote=“ImaniOU”][quote=“On pages 434-5 in Practical English Usage, Michael Swan”] In informal English, we use object forms not only as the objects of verbs and prepositions, but also in most other cases where the words do not come before verbs as their subjects. Object forms are common, for example, in one word answers and after be. ‘Who said that?’ ‘(It was) him’ ‘Who’s that?’ ‘(It’s) me.’
In a more formal style, we often prefer to use the subject form + verb where possible.
[i]‘Who said that?’ ‘He did.’ (BUT NOT ‘He.’)
It is possible to use the subject form after be, but this is extremely formal, and is usually considered over-correct (especially in British English). It is I. It was he.
Object forms are sometimes used in co-ordinated subjects with and in informal speech; this is considered incorrect in more formal usage. John and me are going skiing this weekend.
(More correct: John and I…)[/quote]
When asked over the phone if ImaniOU is home, I answer, “This is she.” But that’s just I. [/quote]
With all due respect to Mr. Swan, “John and me are going …” is never correct. It is just sloppy English that has been heard enough that someone stuck it in a book (unfortunately). Another way to tell is similar to the bracket the other subjects idea. When you are planning a one word answer (I or me), and unsure which is appropriate, create a full sentence answer, in your head at least, and it will be easy to tell.
I never say “theeeee”. In my experience, very few American speakers of English do. It would be perceived as putting on airs.
[quote=“j99l88e77”]You can say “thee” or “the”. Doesn’t matter. “Thee” is easier to use before a vowel because there’s no break in speaking and it’s like, or is, a “y” in between. One example of where it’s easier to say “the” before a vowel is “the one” where a “w” sound can be, or is, used between the two words.
[/quote]
And of course, one would never say “theee uniform”, “theee unicorn”,
or “theee eunuch”.
I have no problem with using the “long e” version, although I know there is a preference for the schwa sound in this case. There’s no “right” or “wrong” pronunciation, just personal preference. The examples you gave are just have strong preferences for the schwa.
As to the “me”/“I” discussion:
It just depends on whether the pronoun is in the subject or object position. The case of “than” is special because “than” can be classed as either a conjunction (where you should use subject pronouns) or a preposition (where you should use object pronouns). So “than I” or “than me” is defensible either way, depending on how you want to look at it.
He is faster than me.
is preferable to He is faster than I.
but He is faster than I am.
has to use “I” since “I” is the subject of the clause.
[quote]As to the “me”/“I” discussion:
It just depends on whether the pronoun is in the subject or object position. The case of “than” is special because “than” can be classed as either a conjunction (where you should use subject pronouns) or a preposition (where you should use object pronouns). So “than I” or “than me” is defensible either way, depending on how you want to look at it.
He is faster than me.
is preferable to
He is faster than I.
but
He is faster than I am.
has to use “I” since “I” is the subject of the clause.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I have to argue with that one. “He is faster than me” is 100% grammatically incorrect. It’s “He is faster than I.” because “am” is omitted due to redundancy. I’m not saying that that’s how I speak though. I opt for the “He is faster than me” when speaking. I’m just going by what’s deemed as correct by “The Book”.
[quote=“j99l88e77”][quote]As to the “me”/“I” discussion:
It just depends on whether the pronoun is in the subject or object position. The case of “than” is special because “than” can be classed as either a conjunction (where you should use subject pronouns) or a preposition (where you should use object pronouns). So “than I” or “than me” is defensible either way, depending on how you want to look at it.
He is faster than me.
is preferable to
He is faster than I.
but
He is faster than I am.
has to use “I” since “I” is the subject of the clause.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I have to argue with that one. “He is faster than me” is 100% grammatically incorrect. It’s “He is faster than I.” because “am” is omitted due to redundancy. I’m not saying that that’s how I speak though. I opt for the “He is faster than me” when speaking. I’m just going by what’s deemed as correct by “The Book”.[/quote]
According to The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (p. 1113), both “He is faster than me” and “He is faster than I” are unquestionably grammatical. Formality determines the distinction.
Said reference goes on to say “Some speakers find I obtrusively formal and me obtrusively informal, and therefore avoid both constructions by retaining the verb… I am.”
Here’s another one about pronounciation. The/Theee (eees for emphasis)
Theee apple
Theee orange
Theee elephant
Are there any instances, or specific words, when you do not pronounce “Theee” followed by a vowel? Theee elephant sounds so strange. Again, perhaps it its due to laziness that I’ve slipped into the short “The” sound (something I’ve cured at work, at least)
Thanks for all theeeeee input!
L
[/quote]
Hey Limey, back to the latest question you asked. Firstly, I’ve never really thought about it, but as a guess I would say that where you would use “an”, you would use “theee”, and where you would use “a”, you would use “the”.
Therefore words like “university” would just be “the university”.
The next poster’s comment notwithstanding, I agree with all of that except the “redundancy” part. Don’t see how “am” would be redundant. What would it be duplicating? Maybe you meant to say “understood”. In that sentence, “am” is dropped because it is “understood” by the speaker and listener without being spoken and so less necessary.
[quote=“ploor”]According to The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (p. 1113), both “He is faster than me” and “He is faster than I” are unquestionably grammatical. Formality determines the distinction.
[/quote]
I acknowledge your source, but would need rationale to understand and accept that.
IMO, this falls squarely in the court of evolution (or devolution) of language. If enough people ignore the rules and start mumbling everything, do we rewrite the reference books to reflect mumbling as the new standard? In theory, maybe no. In practice, that seems to be happening. OK, now it’s time for those classically trained in linguistics to tell me I’m all wet.
IMO, this falls squarely in the court of evolution (or devolution) of language. If enough people ignore the rules and start mumbling everything, do we rewrite the reference books to reflect mumbling as the new standard? In theory, maybe no. In practice, that seems to be happening. OK, now it’s time for those classically trained in linguistics to tell me I’m all wet. [/quote]
You’re not wet at all. Enough people say/write stuff wrong and it gets incorporated into the “official” language. How do you think American English came about?
No, I’m actually going by the book. I wasn’t making the stuff up about “than” being classed alternately as a conjunction or a preposition. And if “than” is a preposition then there needs to be an object. And if the object of the preposition is the first person pronoun you would use the objective case: “me”.
There’s a nice lengthy discourse there that says “than” can be a preposition and that justifes the common usage of “than me” as grammatical.
So saying it is 100% ungrammatical is unsupported by “the books”. There may be some camps that will argue against it, but that’s a case of them trying to impose an artificial rule on a natural language.
but it is only when you question yourself that you realise how much grammar you take for granted!
[/quote]